Fordham vs. WUSTL Forum

[retinadoc]

Interested in practicing in the Northeast; not necessarily big law (but a possibility). Attracted to Fordham's NYC location and excellent placement record, but enthralled by WUSTL academic reputation (although not interested in staying in the Midwest). Would appreciate any thoughts on which you would choose and why. Thanks!

[Rogoya]

Hello. Just posted the below in two other threads. Thought it might help with your decision, too.

An article on the dean's tenure thus far. Syverud has just agreed to stay for another 5 years:
http://magazine.wustl.edu/Spring10/Wash ... pirit.html

Some evidence on how Wash U is progressing over the years relative to other law schools given US News indicia. Wustl is well-placed to tie USC this coming year. Over the past years, Wash U's reputation has gone from just above 3 out of 5 to 3.7 out of 5, while peer schools have remained relatively still:
http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2005/05 ... emand.html
http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2006/06 ... chool.html
http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2007/07 ... n-law.html
http://money-law.blogspot.com/2008/08/z ... n-law.html
http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/07/z ... n-law.html
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s/rankings

Some evidence on faculty hires. Wash U has been hiring more than other schools for some time now, and the scholars are quite good. Peer schools hired around 1 to 2 a year from what I observed.

2010:
Peggie Smith from Iowa
Kevin Collins from Indiana
Adam B. Bedowi (Bigelow Fellow from University of Chicago)
(The year is about halfway over)

2009:
Washington University in St. Louis
Marion Crain from North Carolina.
Annette Appel from Nevada - Las Vegas.
Melissa Waters from Washington & Lee.
David Law from San Diego.

2008:
Bob Kuehn from Alabama
Brian Tamanaha from St. Johns
Hillary Sale from Iowa
Mae Quinn from Tennessee
Scott Baker from North Carolina

2007:
Carl Minzner. JD, Columbia, 2000. Masters of International Affairs, Columbia, 2000. International Affairs Fellow, Council on Foreign Relations. Yale-China Law Fellow, Xibei Institute ofPolitics and Law.
Adam Rosenzweig. JD, Georgetown, 1998. LLM, NYU, 2002. Visiting Assistant Professor, VAP, Northwestern.

2006:
Washington University (St. Louis)

New: Samuel Buell, JD NYU 1992, Emerging Scholars Program, Texas
Emily Hughes, JD Michigan 1997, MA International Relations Yale 1992, Associate Director Death Penalty Clinic DePaul
Rebecca Hollander-Blumoff, JD Harvard 1996, PhD Candidate Psychology NYU, Research Fellow NYU

[bk1]

Fordham due to wanting to live in the Northeast as long as you are fine with NYC as Fordham loses a lot of strength outside of the city.

[ENGINEERD]

WUSTL does seem to have a lot of momentum. If you are not 100% on NYC then choose wherever you would be happiest at.

[DerrickRose]

FWIW WashU students won't shut up about how shady all the employment statistics are for their school. There was a great post on JDU about how their article III clerkship number was seemingly made up out of thin air.

If you want the NE I would go to Fordham OP.

[JCougar]

Any scholarships from either?

[Blindmelon]

The cheaper one. But for the NE, I'd take Fordham, hands down.

[retinadoc]

Finances are not a major consideration in the formula as I am facing full tuition at both. Had other scholarship offers, but not at these two schools. The COL is higher in NYC, but family lives in the tri-state area, so I am closer to home. WUSTL has less expensive housing, but will have some travel costs associated with trips back East (although not enough to account for NYC housing). In any case, really looking for input on the quality of the two programs, the law school experience, and the ability for placement in the Northeast between the two schools. Input appreciated.

[Regionality]

Fordham will place better in the NE, WUSTL will place better everywhere else. But if your heart is set on the NE, then it's gotta be Fordham.

[najumobi]

Interested in practicing in the Northeast; not necessarily big law (but a possibility). Attracted to Fordham's NYC location and excellent placement record, but enthralled by WUSTL academic reputation (although not interested in staying in the Midwest). Would appreciate any thoughts on which you would choose and why. Thanks!

if you want to work in the northeast take fordham. did wustl give you a scholarship? for example if wustl was free and fordham was at sticker, i think wustl would have enough ties to the east coast and nyc that you could take the chance and go to wustl.

EDIT: wow i'm so surprised at how close the poll is.

[La Grind Date]

Interested in practicing in the Northeast; not necessarily big law (but a possibility). Attracted to Fordham's NYC location and excellent placement record, but enthralled by WUSTL academic reputation (although not interested in staying in the Midwest). Would appreciate any thoughts on which you would choose and why. Thanks!

if you want to work in the northeast take fordham. did wustl give you a scholarship? for example if wustl was free and fordham was at sticker, i think wustl would have enough ties to the east coast and nyc that you could take the chance and go to wustl.

i don't understand why you guys think a JD from fordham will do better in the NE than one from WashU; however, there's no question in my mind that Fordham outperforms WashU in NYC, perhaps the world's greatest city (which is enough of a reason to choose Fordham, in my book).

btw, OP, i wouldn't trust this poll. I bet a lot these voters have motives other than helping you.

[najumobi]

Interested in practicing in the Northeast; not necessarily big law (but a possibility). Attracted to Fordham's NYC location and excellent placement record, but enthralled by WUSTL academic reputation (although not interested in staying in the Midwest). Would appreciate any thoughts on which you would choose and why. Thanks!

if you want to work in the northeast take fordham. did wustl give you a scholarship? for example if wustl was free and fordham was at sticker, i think wustl would have enough ties to the east coast and nyc that you could take the chance and go to wustl.

i don't understand why you guys think a JD from fordham will do better in the NE than one from WashU; however, there's no question in my mind that Fordham outperforms WashU in NYC, perhaps the world's greatest city (which is enough of a reason to choose Fordham, in my book).

btw, OP, i wouldn't trust this poll. I bet a lot these voters have motives other than helping you.

i was thinking the same thing. i.e. fordham waitlisters picking wustl in the poll. also the poll isn't set up correctly users can respond to the poll multiple times

i think a fordham jd would do better in the NE b/c fordham has a larger footprint in the NE than wustl does. both place about the same 2% in new england, which are probably just people from that region, but fordham places ~90% of its grads in ny, nj, pa, while wustl only places ~15% of it's grads there.

[danidancer]

If you want NYC, Fordham. If you just want NE, it's probably a toss up - and not that easy from either. WUSTL will probably give you a more traditional collegiate experience, actual campus, etc. Fordham will definitely get you NYC though, which is why they get my vote.

[doezthewustl]

Interested in practicing in the Northeast; not necessarily big law (but a possibility). Attracted to Fordham's NYC location and excellent placement record, but enthralled by WUSTL academic reputation (although not interested in staying in the Midwest). Would appreciate any thoughts on which you would choose and why. Thanks!

http://dothewustl-remix.ytmnd.com/

[La Grind Date]

Interested in practicing in the Northeast; not necessarily big law (but a possibility). Attracted to Fordham's NYC location and excellent placement record, but enthralled by WUSTL academic reputation (although not interested in staying in the Midwest). Would appreciate any thoughts on which you would choose and why. Thanks!

if you want to work in the northeast take fordham. did wustl give you a scholarship? for example if wustl was free and fordham was at sticker, i think wustl would have enough ties to the east coast and nyc that you could take the chance and go to wustl.

i don't understand why you guys think a JD from fordham will do better in the NE than one from WashU; however, there's no question in my mind that Fordham outperforms WashU in NYC, perhaps the world's greatest city (which is enough of a reason to choose Fordham, in my book).

btw, OP, i wouldn't trust this poll. I bet a lot these voters have motives other than helping you.

i was thinking the same thing. i.e. fordham waitlisters picking wustl in the poll. also the poll isn't set up correctly users can respond to the poll multiple times

i think a fordham jd would do better in the NE b/c fordham has a larger footprint in the NE than wustl does. both place about the same 2% in new england, which are probably just people from that region, but fordham places ~90% of its grads in ny, nj, pa, while wustl only places ~15% of it's grads there.

lol. I speculate that wash u waitlisters/wash u haters are picking fordham.

i don't think fordham's reputation is great outside of NYC. Around 97% of fordham students want to stay in NYC which would account for that NY/NJ/PA stat (i.e., it would hold if all of them stay in NYC).

wash u's placement into the NE reflects the desire of WashU students to avoid the NE. As a NE native, I don't understand that, but . . . whatever. About a decade ago, WashU was ranked 38. Now, it's 19 (and will probably be 18 very soon). In the past, WashU students probably would have had an extremely hard time going east. The school's reputation is improving, and now it seems to be a bona fide top-20 school. I would go with the t20 over fordham, unless you want to live in the world's greatest city.

[Grizz]

Now, it's 19 (and will probably be 18 very soon).

Doesn't matter.

The school's reputation is improving, and now it seems to be a bona fide top-20 school.

Top-20 is not a rankings tier.

HTH

That said, Fordham for NYC, WUSTL for elsewhere, but "Northeast" is a really broad geographic swathe.

[La Grind Date]

Now, it's 19 (and will probably be 18 very soon).

Doesn't matter.

The school's reputation is improving, and now it seems to be a bona fide top-20 school.

Top-20 is not a rankings tier.

HTH

That said, Fordham for NYC, WUSTL for elsewhere, but "Northeast" is a really broad geographic swathe.

i commonly hear employers distinguish between the top 20 law schools and the rest (yes, for some employers you can replace "top 20" with "top 14" or "top 10"). but i will agree to disagree with you about this point.

regarding the changing relationship between washu and the midwest, here is some info provided by another poster:

For the Class of 2009:
72% go to firms
42% place in the Midwest (compared to 58% two years ago...so no longer placing a majority of their graduates in the Midwest)
Average salary: $117K
Median salary: $120K
75th %: $160K
Lowest: $24K (public interest, obvi)
Highest: $170K (includes clerkship bonus)
51 new employers at OCI (this was especially impressive to me, with this year's OCIs across the board being so terrible)

[JCougar]

Although I think WUSTL is a strong school, I'd like to know how their median starting salary is $120K, when only 27.5% of the class of 2009 got biglaw jobs. $120K is biglaw salary in medium-sized markets, but half of the class is clearly not getting these jobs. It's more like top third at best.

[retinadoc]

The poll was set up so that only one vote is allowed. That being said, I agree that one has to view the poll results cautiously. There are some who may have less than altruistic motives when casting a vote. This can go both ways, however. There are those who might vote for WUSTL because they want a spot to open at Fordham and others who might vote for Fordham because they want a place to open at WUSTL. That is why the comments are so valuable. Thank you all for your continued input.

[Blindmelon]

Top-20 is not a rankings tier.

HTH

That said, Fordham for NYC, WUSTL for elsewhere, but "Northeast" is a really broad geographic swathe.

This - WUSTL is no better than its peers - and its more like a T30 in terms of biglaw placement - rankings past 17 are pretty arbitrary up to a point.
Agree with the NE being really broad - for PA/NYC/NJ I think its Fordham easy. WashU doesn't place a lot into the NE even though it probably could - especially ITE when things are becoming more regional, it'll prob be tough.

For New England, I wouldn't take either as its out of both school's region.

[najumobi]

Although I think WUSTL is a strong school, I'd like to know how their median starting salary is $120K, when only 27.5% of the class of 2009 got biglaw jobs. $120K is biglaw salary in medium-sized markets, but half of the class is clearly not getting these jobs. It's more like top third at best.

the nlj 250 are firms that have at least 174 lawyers. i'm sure there are lots of firms with fewer lawyers that pay six figures.
it wasn't stated in that post but the median of 120k is a result of 94% of grads in the class reporting.

[JCougar]

Although I think WUSTL is a strong school, I'd like to know how their median starting salary is $120K, when only 27.5% of the class of 2009 got biglaw jobs. $120K is biglaw salary in medium-sized markets, but half of the class is clearly not getting these jobs. It's more like top third at best.

the nlj 250 are firms that have at least 174 lawyers. i'm sure there are lots of firms with fewer lawyers that pay six figures.
it wasn't stated in that post but the median of 120k is a result of 94% of grads in the class reporting.

Is that 94% of the class responding to the survey, or 94% of the class reporting salary? I know a lot of people respond to the survey but don't report their salary. Non-NLJ 250 firms that pay anywhere close to $120K are few and far between. There's certainly not enough of them out there to cover 22.5% of anyone's class. Even many NLJ 250 firms pay less than $120K if they are not in major markets. Indianapolis I think is $110K for biglaw. Tampa biglaw pays anywhere from $100K to $125K. Kansas City is probably similar. So even some of that 27.5% that gets biglaw is not making $120K.

It takes a good school to place 33% of your class into either good clerkships or biglaw. But I'm not under any delusions that the average student at median at WUSTL is going to be on easy street.

[JCougar]

I'd just like to add that median starting salary is a pretty bad metric for measuring employment prospects coming out of school. In reality, every non-T14 probably has a true median starting salary of $60K or so. The problem is that whether your school places 5% into biglaw or 35% into biglaw, the median salary will still be $60K. This is because midlaw barely exists. If you don't believe me, ask one of your schools to give you detailed information about placement. You will see that 5% of the class at best from most schools will get salaries in between biglaw and $60K, and half of those are high-ranking government jobs. Very few firms that are not biglaw pay six figures, or even above $70K, and the ones that do hire a very small number of attorneys.

Every school fudges their starting salary statistics and reports an inflated median starting salary. It's just a fact that people who make less money after school tend not to report their salary on surveys. So the top people will report, the struggling people won't, and thus the school has a "median" starting salary that really only represents what the top 25-30% of the class is making.

The only statistic that has any value in assessing your chances of getting a good salary from law school is the percent of the class that is placed into NLJ 250 firms and article III clerkships. Medians are not accurate in comparing one school to another, because at all but 14-18 schools in this nation, the median student is looking at a $60K salary.

[romothesavior]

Although I think WUSTL is a strong school, I'd like to know how their median starting salary is $120K, when only 27.5% of the class of 2009 got biglaw jobs. $120K is biglaw salary in medium-sized markets, but half of the class is clearly not getting these jobs. It's more like top third at best.

I had this exact conversation with Dean Spivey, and would be happy to have it with anyone else. Just PM me.

[Grizz]

Although I think WUSTL is a strong school, I'd like to know how their median starting salary is $120K, when only 27.5% of the class of 2009 got biglaw jobs. $120K is biglaw salary in medium-sized markets, but half of the class is clearly not getting these jobs. It's more like top third at best.

I had this exact conversation with Dean Spivey, and would be happy to have it with anyone else. Just PM me.

Post it here? I'm not very invested in this discussion at all, but I'm interested to hear this.