Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

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Northsurfer01
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Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby Northsurfer01 » Tue May 04, 2010 12:58 am

I'm asking this question for a concerned friend who is a recipient of one of the full ride scholarships handed out by Brooklyn in a flurry recently. The scholarships are all highly contingent; top 40% to retain full value, anything less than top 65% retains nothing. The GPA spread this represents is small, a 3.2 will retain full value, and roughly a 2.95 will result in losing everything. Given that this type of offer has been handed out so freely, it seems that BLS does have the incentive to section stack to recoup some of this money offered out.

The rumors of section stacking at BLS have been raised in many posts on this forum, but I haven't seen anything that would rise to the level of credible information. Understanding that BLS's contingent scholarship is risky enough at face value, section stacking would only exacerbate the problem, and would make my friend's choice that much easier. So, is there anyone who can speak credibly on the section stacking issue at Brooklyn?

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FuManChusco
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby FuManChusco » Tue May 04, 2010 2:13 am

No one has any idea, including me. I doubt they deliberately section stack, but it does seem like a lot of people are getting that same offer. Even if they don't stack though, I still wouldn't take a scholly with a top 40% stipulation. What other offers does your friend have?

JOThompson
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby JOThompson » Tue May 04, 2010 2:17 am

The 1L who offered me a tour of BLS vehemently denied that section stacking is a practice at BLS. He did, however, accuse Cardozo of stacking its scholarship recipients. Really, I've seen no proof either way.

Northsurfer01
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby Northsurfer01 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:04 pm

His other offer is a southern school ranked in the 30s (sorry, he asked me to be vague for fear of lurking BLS affiliates) with a $10K annual scholarship. Frankly, the value of the risky potential "free JD" from Brooklyn is much less enticing when you look at their on-campus housing costs, which range from $15-20K per year. Anyone considering a similar offer from BLS should really be conscious of the level of risk they'd be assuming coupled with the built in housing expense; the value isn't what you might think.

icydash
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby icydash » Tue May 04, 2010 1:11 pm

bump. curiosity.

--ImageRemoved--

270910
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 9:47 pm

No schools stack. But they'll happily hand 25% of the class a scholarship with a 30% requirement, so everyone feels like they're section is stacked. Same effect, really. It's horrible.

Don't go to BLS is probably the best advice I could give.

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FuManChusco
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby FuManChusco » Tue May 04, 2010 11:11 pm

I'm guessing the southern school is one of W&L/Wake/Alabama. If he wouldn't mind ending up in one of those markets, then I would probably take that school over Brooklyn. If his heart is set on NY, then he better work his ass off and make top 40% or he's screwed ITE.

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby bernie shmegma » Wed May 05, 2010 12:10 pm

Does anyone know what the regular grading curve is? I'm trying to find it online but no such luck. I've also seen a chart from Hofstra comparing its curve to SHU, Cardozo, BLS, and St. Johns, but don't really have the patience right now to find that again. This convo is very relevant to my personal situation and any input into the curve question would help gauge the circumstance a bit more.

icydash
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby icydash » Wed May 05, 2010 2:26 pm

bernie shmegma wrote:Does anyone know what the regular grading curve is? I'm trying to find it online but no such luck. I've also seen a chart from Hofstra comparing its curve to SHU, Cardozo, BLS, and St. Johns, but don't really have the patience right now to find that again. This convo is very relevant to my personal situation and any input into the curve question would help gauge the circumstance a bit more.

Unfortunately I can't find brooklyn on the list, but some other schools' grading curves can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby bernie shmegma » Wed May 05, 2010 4:52 pm

icydash wrote:
bernie shmegma wrote:Does anyone know what the regular grading curve is? I'm trying to find it online but no such luck. I've also seen a chart from Hofstra comparing its curve to SHU, Cardozo, BLS, and St. Johns, but don't really have the patience right now to find that again. This convo is very relevant to my personal situation and any input into the curve question would help gauge the circumstance a bit more.

Unfortunately I can't find brooklyn on the list, but some other schools' grading curves can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... GPA_curves


Yeah, that's why I'm asking. thanks tho

Mr. Pablo
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby Mr. Pablo » Wed May 05, 2010 5:03 pm

Grade Min-Max
A+ 0%-2%
A and above 10%-15%
A- and above 20%-25%
B+ and above 30%-48%
B and above 55%-65%
B- and below 35%-45%
C+ and below 8%-23%
C and below 6%-12%
C- and Below 0%-9%
D and below 0%-9%
F 0%-4%

Grading is within the discretion of the individual professor (subject to the curve). The Law School utilizes a letter-grading system, in which each letter grade has a grade-point equivalent. Grades and grade-point equivalents are as follows: A+(4.33), A(4.0), A-(3.67), B+(3.33), B(3.0), B-(2.67), C+(2.33), C(2.0), C-(1.67), D(1.0) and F(0.00). Students receive credit toward graduation for grades A+ through D. Grade F is failing.

A student’s cumulative weighted average is arrived at by multiplying the letter grade-point equivalent in each course by the number of credits assigned that course, adding those products and dividing that sum by the total number of credits completed in courses for which letter grades are assigned.


This is what I found a la BLS grading.

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby bernie shmegma » Wed May 05, 2010 5:12 pm

Mr. Pablo wrote:
Grade Min-Max
A+ 0%-2%
A and above 10%-15%
A- and above 20%-25%
B+ and above 30%-48%
B and above 55%-65%
B- and below 35%-45%
C+ and below 8%-23%
C and below 6%-12%
C- and Below 0%-9%
D and below 0%-9%
F 0%-4%

Grading is within the discretion of the individual professor (subject to the curve). The Law School utilizes a letter-grading system, in which each letter grade has a grade-point equivalent. Grades and grade-point equivalents are as follows: A+(4.33), A(4.0), A-(3.67), B+(3.33), B(3.0), B-(2.67), C+(2.33), C(2.0), C-(1.67), D(1.0) and F(0.00). Students receive credit toward graduation for grades A+ through D. Grade F is failing.

A student’s cumulative weighted average is arrived at by multiplying the letter grade-point equivalent in each course by the number of credits assigned that course, adding those products and dividing that sum by the total number of credits completed in courses for which letter grades are assigned.


This is what I found a la BLS grading.


Thanks. OK, so basically if you fall to a B- average by the end of 1L, you're losing 45K and guaranteed student housing/5K living stipend per year for the next two years. It doesn't necessarily mean you end up in that B- spot in the class by graduation, but that's not all that is on the line when justifying Brooklyn. 1L is a big IF...

getmetolawschool
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby getmetolawschool » Wed May 05, 2010 5:19 pm

Hi all! So I had a decision to make in regards to a full ride, and I ended up turning it down after speaking with a 2L at Brooklyn. Please note, this was a friend of a friend and not a talking head of the school. I'm definitely not here to bash on Brooklyn bc I toured and liked it very much -- but when this question was brought up on the official school tour, it was totally denied. HOWEVER, the girl I chatted with was very candid and told me that BLS does INDEED stack its sections (and she brought this up without me even asking!). She said that if you are the recipient of a full-ride / housing, expect that every other one of those recipients will be in your section with you. She ended up losing a large chunk of her scholarship, even though she is now in the top third of the class. Just something to be aware of!

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby bernie shmegma » Wed May 05, 2010 5:29 pm

getmetolawschool wrote:Hi all! So I had a decision to make in regards to a full ride, and I ended up turning it down after speaking with a 2L at Brooklyn. Please note, this was a friend of a friend and not a talking head of the school. I'm definitely not here to bash on Brooklyn bc I toured and liked it very much -- but when this question was brought up on the official school tour, it was totally denied. HOWEVER, the girl I chatted with was very candid and told me that BLS does INDEED stack its sections (and she brought this up without me even asking!). She said that if you are the recipient of a full-ride / housing, expect that every other one of those recipients will be in your section with you. She ended up losing a large chunk of her scholarship, even though she is now in the top third of the class. Just something to be aware of!


Case in point. Good to know. Hope you have no bizarre motive to make this up. Ppreciate it. Others... little tales would be appreciated.

Did she tell you how she knew they do indeed stack their sections? I mean, was the fact she lost a huge chunk of her money the relying indication of that? J/w, not that I doubt it at all. Obv it effected her enough to warn you pre-emptively.

Also, Did she say expect that everyone in your section will be one of those recipients or everyone of those recipients will be in your section?
Last edited by bernie shmegma on Wed May 05, 2010 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

getmetolawschool
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby getmetolawschool » Wed May 05, 2010 5:33 pm

Case in point. Good to know. Hope you have no bizarre motive to make this up. Ppreciate it. Others... little tales would be appreciated.

Did she tell you how she knew they do indeed stack their sections? I mean, was the fact she lost a huge chunk of her money the relying indication of that? J/w, not that I doubt it at all. Obv it effected her enough to warn you pre-emptively.


No, no reason to make it up. Like I said, I really did/still do like the school. And I think a lot can be said for going there, in terms of its excellent location. She didn't tell me exactly how she knew -- I didn't think to ask. Maybe it is, as another poster said, that EVERY section appears to be stacked because they throw out so many of these scholarships! In any case, what was clear was that she said that I should expect to lose at least SOME of it after 1L year. A good point she made was the fact that 1L year is such a crapshoot -- there can literally be one missed point separating an A final from a C final. For me, I just couldn't take the added pressure of worrying about my scholarship disappearing. But it's definitely an attractive offer, and one that I agonized over for WEEKS! (And still am agonizing over, even though my decision deadline was technically May 1.) The conclusion that I came to, though, was that everyone in law school is smart. They had to be to get there. And someone has to be below the median!

270910
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:34 pm

Section staking is a myth. No school does it. This is how it spreads.

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby bernie shmegma » Wed May 05, 2010 5:41 pm

getmetolawschool wrote:
Case in point. Good to know. Hope you have no bizarre motive to make this up. Ppreciate it. Others... little tales would be appreciated.

Did she tell you how she knew they do indeed stack their sections? I mean, was the fact she lost a huge chunk of her money the relying indication of that? J/w, not that I doubt it at all. Obv it effected her enough to warn you pre-emptively.


No, no reason to make it up. Like I said, I really did/still do like the school. And I think a lot can be said for going there, in terms of its excellent location. She didn't tell me exactly how she knew -- I didn't think to ask. Maybe it is, as another poster said, that EVERY section appears to be stacked because they throw out so many of these scholarships! In any case, what was clear was that she said that I should expect to lose at least SOME of it after 1L year. A good point she made was the fact that 1L year is such a crapshoot -- there can literally be one missed point separating an A final from a C final. For me, I just couldn't take the added pressure of worrying about my scholarship disappearing. But it's definitely an attractive offer, and one that I agonized over for WEEKS! (And still am agonizing over, even though my decision deadline was technically May 1.) The conclusion that I came to, though, was that everyone in law school is smart. They had to be to get there. And someone has to be below the median!


I'm in the same boat as you, except my agonizing started more recently and I had already made up my mind. I sent out my withdrawals an everything. Then BLS popped back up out of the mail with a sparkle and a wink to it, making my final decision less certain. I agree with your reasoning, but I have not personally decided which way I am going to land. What school are you attending if you don't mind me asking?

getmetolawschool
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby getmetolawschool » Wed May 05, 2010 5:44 pm

I'm in the same boat as you, except my agonizing started more recently and I had already made up my mind. I sent out my withdrawals an everything. Then BLS popped back up out of the mail with a sparkle and a wink to it, making my final decision less certain. I agree with your reasoning, but I have not personally decided which way I am going to land. What school are you attending if you don't mind me asking?


The same exact thing happened to me! I had withdrawn and turned down an already-large sum of $, but when it became full-tuition and housing, I started to completely freak out! And like I said, even with letting the deadline pass I am STILL slightly freaked out at having said no to a potentially free education (minus the cost of living, of course). As of right now I am attending W&M, which is the school I withdrew from all others to attend before Brooklyn decided to drive me insane! :p

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby bernie shmegma » Wed May 05, 2010 5:47 pm

disco_barred wrote:Section staking is a myth. No school does it. This is how it spreads.


Depends what one considers stacking. I'm sure there are methods schools use to ensure certain outcomes. The degree and overtness of that methodology may be a bit murky when identifying "stacking." Also, saying stacking is a myth and no schools stack is pretty unconvincing. Do you have some sort of anecdotal evidence or experience? Obv most you will say will be as much a rumor as saying stacking does exist, but its better than just saying that it simply doesnt exist because rumors start like this. You sound like you know, please do share.

Mr. Pablo
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby Mr. Pablo » Wed May 05, 2010 7:27 pm

I just want to throw this out there:
Who goes around and asks people what kind of scholarship they have? Maybe I'm being a bit naive, unless you had some access to financial aid data, it seems like finding out who had what scholarship package would be difficult and socially awkward. Who does that shit?

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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 7:29 pm

Mr. Pablo wrote:I just want to throw this out there:
Who goes around and asks people what kind of scholarship they have? Maybe I'm being a bit naive, unless you had some access to financial aid data, it seems like finding out who had what scholarship package would be difficult and socially awkward. Who does that shit?


Yup.

People imagine section stacking because schools give out a lot of scholarships with strings attached. If you're in a section of 100 people, and you find out that 20 people have scholarships requiring a top 30% finish, you're going too say ZOMG FUCKIN SECTION STACKING FUCK THIS SHIT.

Fun fact: there are probably 20 people in every section with a 30% finish requirement scholarship.

That's the way school's roll. They give out a lot of scholarship money but they don't stack sections. Paranoid 1Ls miss that fact, somebody tells somebody, rumors spread.

The truth is almost as horrible as the rumor, but the rumor is still annoying.

Clair1331
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby Clair1331 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:48 am

+1

I randomly PMed a BLS student from this forum to ask about patent law and BLS and later about stacking. He said that he doesn't believe that BLS stacks, but since they do give out so many scholarships, someone is always loosing one (assuming he talks to his peers about this) and that it is possible to get it back after the 2L if you do better. Looking at BLS scholarship information (http://www.brooklaw.edu/Admissions/Fina ... ships.aspx? , last tab) about 73% of people were able to renew some part of their scholarship. Not awesome, but still on par with what they say.

I am leaning towards taking it and using the stipulations as motivation to do well.

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GordonBombay
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby GordonBombay » Thu May 06, 2010 10:19 am

I got the offer as well and have been debating this.

When I took the tour she emphasized that they set a total number of aid to give out and redistribute it as it is turned down until it is all gone. Hence all of us getting this second wave of money after April 1 (common deposit day). To that extent everyone is on some kinda schol almost and more people than can keep them have full rides. So in one way its awesome that they redistribute money like that but not because not everyone can keep it.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby T14_Scholly » Thu May 06, 2010 10:37 am

Who posts questions for their friends on TLS? I think OP is talking about himself.

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lostjake
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Re: Brooklyn Law: Is Section Stacking a Real Problem?

Postby lostjake » Thu May 06, 2010 10:45 am

Does it really matter if they section stack or not? Considering most people say that the LSAT and UGPA doesn't predict Law school GPA why does it matter?




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