Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

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ENGINEERD
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Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby ENGINEERD » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:41 pm

Put the rankings aside for a moment...

Which school do you think is better in terms of:

Overall reputation (brand name)
Portability
Job Prospects
Campus
Law Building
Quality of life
Journals/Moot Court opportunities

And what ever else...

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:41 pm

which is cheaper for you to attend, is the question i'd rather ask

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one&only
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby one&only » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:43 pm

Follow th rankings. WUSTL kicks ND.

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:46 pm

one&only wrote:Follow th rankings. WUSTL kicks ND.

tintcr

theantiscalia
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby theantiscalia » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:54 pm

Like you, I'm struggling with this choice (see my thread from a couple of days ago). I went to UG at WUSTL, and I love it there, but here is my overall assessment.


Overall Reputation - WUSTL - The US News give WUSTL higher rankings from both judges and academics. WUSTL is rated higher.

Portability - Notre Dame - Both place very well in the Midwest and pretty good on the coasts. Notre Dame wins because it reigns on the West Coast.

Job Prospects - Tie - Notre Dame's alumni network is fantastic. They've landed some positions (including several SCOTUS clerks and Kirkland and Ellis) above their ranking. WUSTL hasn't done that. But WUSTL did have a better year last year.

Campus - Notre Dame - Until this weekend when I visited Notre Dame, I would have said WUSTL. But Notre Dame wins hands down... it is the most beautiful campus I've ever been to.

Law Building - Notre Dame - Notre Dame's law building is brand new. It is gorgeous.

Quality of Life - WUSTL - While Notre Dame probably has a better campus community, St. Louis is awesome (and I'm not even from there), and WUSTL's splitter-friendly reputation gives it a "not as competitive" vibe.

Journals/Moot Court opportunities - Notre Dame - I personally like the journal and Moot Court selectio better at Notre Dame, but this could be a toss up. I will say that WUSTL is far and above for clinical opportunities (as everybody is guaranteed a spot).

ENGINEERD
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby ENGINEERD » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:02 pm

theantiscalia wrote:Like you, I'm struggling with this choice (see my thread from a couple of days ago). I went to UG at WUSTL, and I love it there, but here is my overall assessment.


Overall Reputation - WUSTL - The US News give WUSTL higher rankings from both judges and academics. WUSTL is rated higher.

Portability - Notre Dame - Both place very well in the Midwest and pretty good on the coasts. Notre Dame wins because it reigns on the West Coast.

Job Prospects - Tie - Notre Dame's alumni network is fantastic. They've landed some positions (including several SCOTUS clerks and Kirkland and Ellis) above their ranking. WUSTL hasn't done that. But WUSTL did have a better year last year.

Campus - Notre Dame - Until this weekend when I visited Notre Dame, I would have said WUSTL. But Notre Dame wins hands down... it is the most beautiful campus I've ever been to.

Law Building - Notre Dame - Notre Dame's law building is brand new. It is gorgeous.

Quality of Life - WUSTL - While Notre Dame probably has a better campus community, St. Louis is awesome (and I'm not even from there), and WUSTL's splitter-friendly reputation gives it a "not as competitive" vibe.

Journals/Moot Court opportunities - Notre Dame - I personally like the journal and Moot Court selectio better at Notre Dame, but this could be a toss up. I will say that WUSTL is far and above for clinical opportunities (as everybody is guaranteed a spot).


Thanks for the replies!

theantiscalia I agree with you for the most part and its nice to meet someone else in my position. Which one did you end up choosing (if you have made your choice) and what was the deciding factor?? Besides the rankings it seems like a break even and comes down to which one you like best...

colemf
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby colemf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:08 pm

I agree with yall except for quality of life, ND doesn't rank, you cant get less competitive than that, to me that goes a long way in a quality of life measure.

theantiscalia
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby theantiscalia » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:11 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Like you, I'm struggling with this choice (see my thread from a couple of days ago). I went to UG at WUSTL, and I love it there, but here is my overall assessment.


Overall Reputation - WUSTL - The US News give WUSTL higher rankings from both judges and academics. WUSTL is rated higher.

Portability - Notre Dame - Both place very well in the Midwest and pretty good on the coasts. Notre Dame wins because it reigns on the West Coast.

Job Prospects - Tie - Notre Dame's alumni network is fantastic. They've landed some positions (including several SCOTUS clerks and Kirkland and Ellis) above their ranking. WUSTL hasn't done that. But WUSTL did have a better year last year.

Campus - Notre Dame - Until this weekend when I visited Notre Dame, I would have said WUSTL. But Notre Dame wins hands down... it is the most beautiful campus I've ever been to.

Law Building - Notre Dame - Notre Dame's law building is brand new. It is gorgeous.

Quality of Life - WUSTL - While Notre Dame probably has a better campus community, St. Louis is awesome (and I'm not even from there), and WUSTL's splitter-friendly reputation gives it a "not as competitive" vibe.

Journals/Moot Court opportunities - Notre Dame - I personally like the journal and Moot Court selectio better at Notre Dame, but this could be a toss up. I will say that WUSTL is far and above for clinical opportunities (as everybody is guaranteed a spot).


Thanks for the replies!

theantiscalia I agree with you for the most part and its nice to meet someone else in my position. Which one did you end up choosing (if you have made your choice) and what was the deciding factor?? Besides the rankings it seems like a break even and comes down to which one you like best...


I've (tentatively) chosen Notre Dame... I had put up a poll on the site, and most people said Notre Dame, and I agreed with their thought process. It will be about 18k cheaper over thre years (for me) and add some resume diversity (since I went to UG at WUSTL).

theantiscalia
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby theantiscalia » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:15 pm

I do bet from your site name that you're an engineer... if you're thinking of patent law, go to WUSTL. I believe they have a patent law / IP clinic.

The two schools are remarkably similar... they're one spot away in the NLJ rankings, they both have decent clerkship placement, and their LRAP and summer stipend programs seemed comperable.

Tomato Stevens
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby Tomato Stevens » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:30 am

I am targeting a different kind of law schools, but since I did my undergrad at one of these institutions, I'll volunteer my opinion here.

Overall reputation (brand name) - Based on peer assessment and judge/lawyer assessment, WUSTL. Given WUSTL's upward trend in these two criteria that has been consistent for nearly 10 years, by the time you graduate, WUSTL is likely to have an even better reputation (and quite likely a higher US News rank).

Portability - In the Midwest, they are similar. East Coast and South: WUSTL. West Coast and Mountain: ND.

Job Prospects - very similar out of both schools. WUSTL has performed better in recent OCI's and is on the rise; ND has been a solid law school for many years and its Christian affiliation has a lot to do with its ability to maintain a loyal and committed alumni basis. One would argue that WUSTL's unofficial Jewish affiliation has a similar impact.

Campus - Both campuses are gorgeous.

Law Building - I haven't seen ND's new building, but it has to be really pretty to give a fight to WUSTL law school's amazing facilities.

Quality of life - WUSTL and it's not even close.

Journals/Moot Court opportunities - I would say they are pretty similar.

nocal
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby nocal » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:03 am

The first five are clearly ND. A lot of posters speak of how beautiful ND's campus and law school are, but you have to visit to fully appreciate their impact. I visited both schools and it's really not close. Quality of life really depends upon what you mean. Unlike a lot of law schools, ND law students typically spend a lot of time on campus. There are so many good study areas, cafes, etc that studying on campus is very common. Off campus I suspect the advantage goes to St. Louis. While South Bend is not the pit that many assume, it isn't beautiful by any means. It's large city, particularly when you incorporate the surrounding and adjoining cities, but it doesn't seem to have the problems with violent crime that many areas have. I don't know what about the crime levels in St. Louis. The journals and moot court programs at ND are very good, but I never looked into those at WUSTL.

mkm41
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby mkm41 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:44 pm

Tomato Stevens wrote:I am targeting a different kind of law schools, but since I did my undergrad at one of these institutions, I'll volunteer my opinion here.

Overall reputation (brand name) - Based on peer assessment and judge/lawyer assessment, WUSTL. Given WUSTL's upward trend in these two criteria that has been consistent for nearly 10 years, by the time you graduate, WUSTL is likely to have an even better reputation (and quite likely a higher US News rank).

Portability - In the Midwest, they are similar. East Coast and South: WUSTL. West Coast and Mountain: ND.

Job Prospects - very similar out of both schools. WUSTL has performed better in recent OCI's and is on the rise; ND has been a solid law school for many years and its Christian affiliation has a lot to do with its ability to maintain a loyal and committed alumni basis. One would argue that WUSTL's unofficial Jewish affiliation has a similar impact.

Campus - Both campuses are gorgeous.

Law Building - I haven't seen ND's new building, but it has to be really pretty to give a fight to WUSTL law school's amazing facilities.

Quality of life - WUSTL and it's not even close.

Journals/Moot Court opportunities - I would say they are pretty similar.


Haha no offense, but it's pretty obvious tomato did their undergrad at WUSTL. I won't pretend to be unbiased... I did undergrad at ND and I'm turning down some higher ranked schools to go to NDLS next year. Here are some things you may want to consider about ND, though:
(1) ND's rank has been lower in the past years because of the relatively small library facilities. They added an entirely new (GORGEOUS) law building this past fall, and you really should visit if you haven't. That being said, the building that used to be the entire law school is now the library. ND should definitely be rising in the rankings and has already begun to do so.
(2) Regarding job prospects/reputation, etc., I don't think any school can compete with the ND alumni base. Obviously this will depend a little on what type of law you plan to pursue, and both schools have a wonderful reputation overall. But a large part of what makes ND great is the connection alumni retain and the borderline ridiculous loyalty graduates feel towards ND. Alumni will absolutely jump through hoops to help out any ND student - they don't call it the "biggest fraternity in the world" for nothing. There are (very active) ND alumni clubs all over the country and internationally, and if you know where you want to live and practice you should definitely check out their club's website.
(3) Quality of life is also very subjective to your personality and what you want to do. ND is a fairly self-sustained community, and most of your activities outside of class will also be on campus. I, for one, am extremely passionate about college sports. Not really something to base your entire law school decision on, but the football and basketball games (among other sports) are amazing experiences and tickets are guaranteed to all students who want to go. St. Louis definitely beats South Bend, but it all depends on the type of experience you're looking for.
(4) When you visit NDLS, its clear that the atmosphere is very laid-back and friendly. Its definitely NOT competitive (students even said that when they missed class other students would notice and send them their notes without them even having to ask). Attire is generally jeans and a sweatshirt, something I will really value at 8 AM next year.

Again, not trying to be unbiased, I would totally pick ND... That having been said, it's not for everyone but hopefully this information is useful!

Pearalegal
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:48 pm

colemf wrote:I agree with yall except for quality of life, ND doesn't rank, you cant get less competitive than that, to me that goes a long way in a quality of life measure.


However, ND does offer a different type of student life. While there is certainly a place for other viewpoints, the Catholic heritage of the school shouldn't be taken lightly- it truly does pervade the entire school and much of the student body.

I say this just because ND was my number 1, and I figured it wouldn't be SO in your face, but thats not the case.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:16 pm

Image

09042014
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:18 pm

I'm still pissed about the Chief being gone.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:21 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'm still pissed about the Chief being gone.


It is what it is. The Chief had powerful enemies. But wherever people are discussing WUSTL and ND like they are the only good non-T14's for the Chicago market, he will be there.

theantiscalia
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby theantiscalia » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:30 pm

This might be a stupid question... who the *&%$ is the Chief?

09042014
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:36 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm still pissed about the Chief being gone.


It is what it is. The Chief had powerful enemies. But wherever people are discussing WUSTL and ND like they are the only good non-T14's for the Chicago market, he will be there.


If I didn't get NU, I'd probably be headed back there next year, because I want Chicago.

Z3RO
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby Z3RO » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:36 pm

UIUC's old mascot. They got rid of him a few years ago because of pressure from NA groups or whatever.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:39 pm

theantiscalia wrote:This might be a stupid question... who the *&%$ is the Chief?


Chief Illiniwek was the symbol of the University of Illinois. A nearby Indian Tribe donated an outfit to the University and taught some students one of their dances and it was performed by a student at halftime of football and basketball games for over 80 years.

Of course this was deemed "hostile and abusive" by the NCAA, and despite opposition from pretty much everybody, including the descendants of the Illini tribe, the Chief was retired in 2006.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm still pissed about the Chief being gone.


It is what it is. The Chief had powerful enemies. But wherever people are discussing WUSTL and ND like they are the only good non-T14's for the Chicago market, he will be there.


If I didn't get NU, I'd probably be headed back there next year, because I want Chicago.


Congrats, but have fun not having any fun.

09042014
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:41 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm still pissed about the Chief being gone.


It is what it is. The Chief had powerful enemies. But wherever people are discussing WUSTL and ND like they are the only good non-T14's for the Chicago market, he will be there.


If I didn't get NU, I'd probably be headed back there next year, because I want Chicago.


Congrats, but have fun not having any fun.


Ha, I think I might be headed to CU for a party on friday.

ENGINEERD
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby ENGINEERD » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:06 pm

Thanks for all the posts again,

I plan on going into patent law on the west coast (although open to nyc)...

In addition, the total difference in scholarship money over 3 years will make ND 24K cheaper.

Also, I am from a very large city and don't particularly like the idea of living in a small town.

Does that give an edge to one of these schools??

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:12 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:Thanks for all the posts again,

I plan on going into patent law on the west coast (although open to nyc)...

In addition, the total difference in scholarship money over 3 years will make ND 24K cheaper.

Also, I am from a very large city and don't particularly like the idea of living in a small town.

Does that give an edge to one of these schools??


West Coast? Why don't I see USC on this list? Or Hastings/Davis/Irvine?

byunbee
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby byunbee » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:19 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:This might be a stupid question... who the *&%$ is the Chief?


Chief Illiniwek was the symbol of the University of Illinois. A nearby Indian Tribe donated an outfit to the University and taught some students one of their dances and it was performed by a student at halftime of football and basketball games for over 80 years.

Of course this was deemed "hostile and abusive" by the NCAA, and despite opposition from pretty much everybody, including the descendants of the Illini tribe, the Chief was retired in 2006.


I still have my shirt with an obnoxiously large "Chief" printed on it. But I have to say, I was kinda on the other side of this debate. :|




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