Money vs. Reputation

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KG_CalGuy
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Money vs. Reputation

Postby KG_CalGuy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:32 pm

Among the most common types of posts on TLS tends to be the question, "Which school do I pick? Law School X (with $$) or Law School Y (at sticker)?" I too am struggling with this decision (but for more reasons than simple economics). Nonetheless, the idea of paying $200,000 or more for a JD is an extremely scary idea to many future law students, including myself. However, in having to decide between attending UCLA with a ~3/4 tuition scholarship or paying sticker at either NYU or CLS, I have come across some very interesting perspectives from current law students and recent alumni that I thought I'd share with you all. In general, these statements support the idea that we all love to hate: go to the best law school you can get into.

When speaking to an NYU Alum ('07) about UCLA vs. NYU, he provided me with this useful information:
Here is the bottom line: law school recruiting has changed. Fewer firms are recruiting and whether that is going to change any time soon remains to be seen. That said, NYU has really not suffered (along with Yale, Harvard, and Columbia). I remember what a friend of mine at Columbia said: it's always good at the top. I'm not sure about UCLA's recruiting by I can tell you that [my firm] has 2 UCLA grads compared to 80 NYU grads. And that's not just an East Coast bias thing. If you look at Latham & Watkins which is supposedly California's most prestigious firm there are only 3 UCLA grads vs. 93 NYU grads. Even at West Coast firms such as Gibson Dunn which has a large UCLA population, NYU has placed more lawyers, not to mention that 95% of the UCLA grads at Gibson Dunn work in California whereas the NYU grads work in their NY, California, D.C. and even Dubai office)


This information was also supported by some contacts my father had with some UCLA alum, both of which have done well in their careers (one is a partner at an NLJ250 and the other recently left the firm to work in-house). They remarked (paraphrased):
Go to the best law school you can get into, even if it means passing up money to go to "good" law school (like UCLA). The opportunities afforded to graduates from the top 5 law schools cannot be matched...even in bad times those graduates will still get jobs, and the same cannot be said from those who graduate from law schools that are outside the top 5 (or 10)


Regarding finances, this NYU alum confirmed the benefits that we all suspect of a career in biglaw, noting:
Believe it or not I have only ~$65,000 of debt left being moderately studious with my repayment...I could literally write a check to pay off all the loans but I see no reason to do that...money should not be a consideration when choosing a law school. I know people who took the money and ran and are now out of work. So yes, they didn't have debt, but they also didn't have jobs which definitely hurt their careers early on.


Of course, these are only a select sampling of opinions from people I've talked to and I don't mean this to imply that you should never choose a school like UCLA over CLS/NYU (in fact, I still haven't decided). Additionally, each and every person I talked to said that debt still mattered. However, it wasn't the life-governing burden that they expected it to be and the t14 schools all had available programs that allowed them to choose public interest jobs if they were so inclined. I also found this article to be useful http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1208256428026.

Anyways, that's enough from me, hopefully the above information helps at least ONE person.

EDIT: the NYU alum made a research error and searched for UCLA instead of UCLA School of Law. There are actually 91 UCLA Law alum at Latham & Watkins.
Last edited by KG_CalGuy on Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jitsrenzo
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby jitsrenzo » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:20 am

Good post.

Flanker1067
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby Flanker1067 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:25 am

Interesting post. Although I think most people are inclined to feel the same way in the situation of UCLA vs. NYU. I think it becomes a trickier issue when it's two T14's that are more similar in their placement of students.

leftofthedial
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby leftofthedial » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:32 am

Thanks.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby kittenmittons » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:51 am

jitsrenzo wrote:Good post.

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ihurtmyselftoday
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby ihurtmyselftoday » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:20 am

KG_CalGuy wrote: In general, these statements support the idea that we all love to hate: go to the best law school you can get into.


...except when the school in question is Georgetown.

Further evidence of how irrational and silly the ant-GULC group-think is on this site. :roll:

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soullesswonder
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby soullesswonder » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:23 am

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
KG_CalGuy wrote: In general, these statements support the idea that we all love to hate: go to the best law school you can get into.


...except when the school in question is Georgetown.

Further evidence of how irrational and silly the ant-GULC group-think is on this site. :roll:


I didn't see anything in the OP that seemed to bolster GULC's case. On the contrary, the OP seems to think we should be paying attention to the rankings, which is not exactly an unqualified plus for the Caboose of the T13

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scribelaw
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby scribelaw » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:23 am

Flanker1067 wrote:Interesting post. Although I think most people are inclined to feel the same way in the situation of UCLA vs. NYU. I think it becomes a trickier issue when it's two T14's that are more similar in their placement of students.


This. I would take NYU sticker over UCLA any day...But what about NYU sticker versus MVPND with, say, a half-tuition scholarship? That's a tougher choice.

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby bernie shmegma » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:25 am

This needs to remain active. Excellent Post. As I said to someone else on here, this takes common sense to an empirically verifiable study. I would conclude that going to the best school you get into over saving a lot of money, especially for NY, only applies if one of the school is T14 + Fordham. The same for other regions only replace Fordham with the elite regional schools (ie for ATL vanderbilt/emory). Otherwise, going to the best school one gets into below T14 + regional elites over another regional school offering relatively similar opportunities and financial relief is not worth the risk.

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ihurtmyselftoday
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby ihurtmyselftoday » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:27 am

soullesswonder wrote:
ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
KG_CalGuy wrote: In general, these statements support the idea that we all love to hate: go to the best law school you can get into.


...except when the school in question is Georgetown.

Further evidence of how irrational and silly the ant-GULC group-think is on this site. :roll:


I didn't see anything in the OP that seemed to bolster GULC's case. On the contrary, the OP seems to think we should be paying attention to the rankings, which is not exactly an unqualified plus for the Caboose of the T13


My point is that, on TLS, GULC is rarely considered a better option than a lower-ranked (but in most cases Tier 1) school with $$$.

E.g. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109642

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=112403&start=0

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=113278&view=viewpoll

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61564&view=viewpoll

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79080

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Clint Eastwood
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby Clint Eastwood » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:34 am

I'd like to see a break down between firms that aren't the top firms. I think I'd still be inclined to go with the UCLA scholly over NYU even if it means I won't get into a top firm. But I'd be willing to settle and I'm hugely debt averse, so take that for what it's worth.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby soullesswonder » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:35 am

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:
ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
KG_CalGuy wrote: In general, these statements support the idea that we all love to hate: go to the best law school you can get into.


...except when the school in question is Georgetown.

Further evidence of how irrational and silly the ant-GULC group-think is on this site. :roll:


I didn't see anything in the OP that seemed to bolster GULC's case. On the contrary, the OP seems to think we should be paying attention to the rankings, which is not exactly an unqualified plus for the Caboose of the T13


My point is that, on TLS, GULC is rarely considered a better option than a lower-ranked (but in most cases Tier 1) school with $$$.

E.g. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109642


Your case is not really that egregious...yeah, I probably wouldn't have voted for GW, but there was a six figure difference between GW and GULC and you didn't sound like you were really sold on BigLaw. Also, GW is (last year's disaster aside) at T25 school, not just a Tier One.

09042014
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:36 am

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:
ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
KG_CalGuy wrote: In general, these statements support the idea that we all love to hate: go to the best law school you can get into.


...except when the school in question is Georgetown.

Further evidence of how irrational and silly the ant-GULC group-think is on this site. :roll:


I didn't see anything in the OP that seemed to bolster GULC's case. On the contrary, the OP seems to think we should be paying attention to the rankings, which is not exactly an unqualified plus for the Caboose of the T13


My point is that, on TLS, GULC is rarely considered a better option than a lower-ranked (but in most cases Tier 1) school with $$$.

E.g. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109642

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=112403&start=0

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=113278&view=viewpoll

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61564&view=viewpoll

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79080


No nonT13 is worth sticker.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby soullesswonder » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:39 am

Desert Fox wrote:
ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
My point is that, on TLS, GULC is rarely considered a better option than a lower-ranked (but in most cases Tier 1) school with $$$.

E.g. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109642

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=112403&start=0

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=113278&view=viewpoll

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61564&view=viewpoll

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79080


No nonT13 is worth sticker.


:lol: :lol:

The third thread that was linked had someone providing placement data that suggested Texas was better, the fourth thread had Cornell as the leader, and the fifth thread had observationalist. None of those outcomes surprise me.

ze2151
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby ze2151 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:44 am

bernie shmegma wrote:This needs to remain active. Excellent Post. As I said to someone else on here, this takes common sense to an empirically verifiable study. I would conclude that going to the best school you get into over saving a lot of money, especially for NY, only applies if one of the school is T14 + Fordham. The same for other regions only replace Fordham with the elite regional schools (ie for ATL vanderbilt/emory). Otherwise, going to the best school one gets into below T14 + regional elites over another regional school offering relatively similar opportunities and financial relief is not worth the risk.



the basic principle op is arguing for is a good one, i think, but i like the amendment here regarding regional elites. if you, like i, want to live and work in georgia forever, then a full ride at emory may well trump 60,000 at uva. but if i wanted to move back to the northeast, the cash at emory might not be a prudent choice and certainly wouldn't be the better option between emory and uva, unless you want to go to emory for a specific reason (law and religion perhaps).

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PopCopyManager
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby PopCopyManager » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:48 am

I agree with the difficulty in choosing behind CCN and 1/2+ Tuition at a T10. Based on all the actual numbers I've seen, it looks like the T10 is the way to go. However, as others have pointed out, there may be other (less quantifiable) benefits of going to a T6 school.

Flanker1067
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby Flanker1067 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:54 am

PopCopyManager wrote:I agree with the difficulty in choosing behind CCN and 1/2+ Tuition at a T10. Based on all the actual numbers I've seen, it looks like the T10 is the way to go. However, as others have pointed out, there may be other (less quantifiable) benefits of going to a T6 school.



I went into fedex/kinko's the other day to get a poster made and they told me the cd was blank. At the time I figured that I had grabbed the wrong cd because I didn't label it. Then I went home to check, and it was the right one. I brought it back the next day, went to a different counter and it worked fine. Made me smile and think of your avatar.

/useless and irrelevant (sort of) post

sumus romani
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby sumus romani » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:55 am

Yeah, CCN vs. other T10 w/ $$ is a darn hard question. I woke up at around 4:30 this morning and couldn't go back to sleep because of it. I'm dying. :?

KG_CalGuy
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby KG_CalGuy » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:06 pm

Just an edit about one of the quotes I had from the NYU alum, apparently he made a research error, so the difference between NYU and UCLA at Latham & Watkins is not nearly as vast. I guess he searched "University of California Los Angeles" (which gave him results for students who attended UCLA undergrad) instead of "UCLA School of Law," . Having rechecked this information, there are 91 UCLA Law alum at Latham & Watkins.

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby bernie shmegma » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:08 pm

KG_CalGuy wrote:Just an edit about one of the quotes I had from the NYU alum, apparently he made a research error, so the difference between NYU and UCLA at Latham & Watkins is not nearly as vast. I guess he searched "University of California Los Angeles" (which gave him results for students who attended UCLA undergrad) instead of "UCLA School of Law," . Having rechecked this information, there are 91 UCLA Law alum at Latham & Watkins.


Can you edit your original post too? Just amend it with what you said directly above. For the people's sake.

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scribelaw
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby scribelaw » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:11 pm

sumus romani wrote:Yeah, CCN vs. other T10 w/ $$ is a darn hard question. I woke up at around 4:30 this morning and couldn't go back to sleep because of it. I'm dying. :?


For me, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Northwestern with a $60,000-$90,000 scholarship is a better option than NYU sticker, if I end up getting money from Northwestern.

Amelie
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby Amelie » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:11 pm

sumus romani wrote:Yeah, CCN vs. other T10 w/ $$ is a darn hard question. I woke up at around 4:30 this morning and couldn't go back to sleep because of it. I'm dying. :?

Yeah, I think this is a much harder question. I just can't justify paying sticker for CCN when I'll have much less debt at a T10.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby kittenmittons » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:13 pm

scribelaw wrote:
sumus romani wrote:Yeah, CCN vs. other T10 w/ $$ is a darn hard question. I woke up at around 4:30 this morning and couldn't go back to sleep because of it. I'm dying. :?


For me, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Northwestern with a $60,000-$90,000 scholarship is a better option than NYU sticker, if I end up getting money from Northwestern.

Unless you want NYC

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PopCopyManager
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby PopCopyManager » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:13 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
PopCopyManager wrote:I agree with the difficulty in choosing behind CCN and 1/2+ Tuition at a T10. Based on all the actual numbers I've seen, it looks like the T10 is the way to go. However, as others have pointed out, there may be other (less quantifiable) benefits of going to a T6 school.



I went into fedex/kinko's the other day to get a poster made and they told me the cd was blank. At the time I figured that I had grabbed the wrong cd because I didn't label it. Then I went home to check, and it was the right one. I brought it back the next day, went to a different counter and it worked fine. Made me smile and think of your avatar.

/useless and irrelevant (sort of) post


If a customer has a computer disk, tell them it's the wrong format! hahaha i heart the chappelle show.

Amelie
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Re: Money vs. Reputation

Postby Amelie » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:14 pm

kittenmittons wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
sumus romani wrote:Yeah, CCN vs. other T10 w/ $$ is a darn hard question. I woke up at around 4:30 this morning and couldn't go back to sleep because of it. I'm dying. :?


For me, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Northwestern with a $60,000-$90,000 scholarship is a better option than NYU sticker, if I end up getting money from Northwestern.

Unless you want NYC


I think this is key with the debate of CLS/NYU versus other options. If you don't want NYC the CCN advantage drops quite a bit.




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