Is Michigan slipping?

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sam.emton
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Is Michigan slipping?

Postby sam.emton » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:21 pm

I have talked to several practicing partners at large firms in DC and the South and law school professors on the East Coast/in the South, and they feel that Michigan is "slipping" and that it isn't what it used to be in terms of rank/prestige. The feeling I get is: When I was in law school 20 years ago, Michigan was one of the best. Now, it's still good, but not great.

Is this a problem for Michigan long-term? Will the value of a Michigan Law degree still hold up in 20 years? Will Michigan hold steady in the top 10 or will it continue to fall?

Finally, I have heard this from 5 or 6 lawyers/law professors at other schools. Is this a general feeling or do I just have a very biased sample.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:26 pm

I have thought about this, and it looks as if the amount of applications that Michigan recieves is declining relative to other schools every year for the last 5 (all I have looked at, trend may be longer though) because less people want to go to Michigan, which is a state with many problems(I think, but ultimately my reason may be wrong but conclusion could still be right). However, these types of things take a long time to have any meanignful effect on the school, especially when they experience an increase in apps by 20% like they claimed this year. So in the meantime, the future of the state is in balance and will ultimately decide the fate of the school. If Detroit becomes a thriving city, then Mich is good, if Detroit becomes a ghost town, then Mich will slowly but surely decline.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:30 pm

sam.emton wrote:I have talked to several practicing partners at large firms in DC and the South and law school professors on the East Coast/in the South, and they feel that Michigan is "slipping" and that it isn't what it used to be in terms of rank/prestige. The feeling I get is: When I was in law school 20 years ago, Michigan was one of the best. Now, it's still good, but not great.

Is this a problem for Michigan long-term? Will the value of a Michigan Law degree still hold up in 20 years? Will Michigan hold steady in the top 10 or will it continue to fall?

Finally, I have heard this from 5 or 6 lawyers/law professors at other schools. Is this a general feeling or do I just have a very biased sample.
The value of your degree has everything to do with the job it gets you coming out of law school. This 20 year value assessment is foolishness. Even three to five years out, you're assessed by your substantive work.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:31 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Someday, it will fall all the way down to be on par with UVA.

Let's not go crazy here.

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holydonkey
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby holydonkey » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:35 pm

This is ridiculous.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

OMG, looks like Michigan slipped in 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, and 2008!


/and improved or remained the same in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2009

JRMjr
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby JRMjr » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:I have thought about this, and it looks as if the amount of applications that Michigan recieves is declining relative to other schools every year for the last 5 (all I have looked at, trend may be longer though) because less people want to go to Michigan, which is a state with many problems(I think, but ultimately my reason may be wrong but conclusion could still be right). However, these types of things take a long time to have any meanignful effect on the school, especially when they experience an increase in apps by 20% like they claimed this year. So in the meantime, the future of the state is in balance and will ultimately decide the fate of the school. If Detroit becomes a thriving city, then Mich is good, if Detroit becomes a ghost town, then Mich will slowly but surely decline.


Dear lord... was this serious? that might be the most uninformed opinion I have ever read on TLS.... and TLS is FULL of them.
-look at Michigan LSN numbers... it isnt hurting for qualified applicants BUT the pool of total applicants is flat or declining which means there are fewer well-informed applicants
-percentage of funding received from the state with many problems: 3%... therefore its not like they are short on funds to attract top teachers or students
-things take a long time to materialize.... correct but how long has Michigan been hurting? A long time (10+ years in steady decline)
-University fortune correlation to detroit's fortune = ~0%

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:38 pm

holydonkey wrote:This is ridiculous.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

OMG, looks like Michigan slipped in 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, and 2008!


/and improved or remained the same in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2009



Why is this ridiculous?

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pany1985
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby pany1985 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:38 pm

It's only a matter of time before Cooley is the best law school in Michigan

Kong456
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Kong456 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:40 pm

A few years ago Ave Maria had a better bar passage rate than Michigan . . .

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 pm

JRMjr wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:I have thought about this, and it looks as if the amount of applications that Michigan recieves is declining relative to other schools every year for the last 5 (all I have looked at, trend may be longer though) because less people want to go to Michigan, which is a state with many problems(I think, but ultimately my reason may be wrong but conclusion could still be right). However, these types of things take a long time to have any meanignful effect on the school, especially when they experience an increase in apps by 20% like they claimed this year. So in the meantime, the future of the state is in balance and will ultimately decide the fate of the school. If Detroit becomes a thriving city, then Mich is good, if Detroit becomes a ghost town, then Mich will slowly but surely decline.


Dear lord... was this serious? that might be the most uninformed opinion I have ever read on TLS.... and TLS is FULL of them.
-look at Michigan LSN numbers... it isnt hurting for qualified applicants BUT the pool of total applicants is flat or declining which means there are fewer well-informed applicants
-percentage of funding received from the state with many problems: 3%... therefore its not like they are short on funds to attract top teachers or students
-things take a long time to materialize.... correct but how long has Michigan been hurting? A long time (10+ years in steady decline)
-University fortune correlation to detroit's fortune = ~0%


My point has nothing to do with the students now. I agree, they have way more applicants then they need to make a good quality class. And admittedly the timeframe that it takes to have effect probably makes this irrelevant, but they are declining relative other schools (many of whom, cited a 30% or larger increase in apps this year). I also said nothing about funding, I don't think money will ever be the problem, but there are T2 schools that also have alot of money, and that isn't the problem for them either. It just has to do with image, and the ability of the school to draw the best applicants they can.

Add: If you go to Michigan now, you don't need to take offense. I have nothing but respect for the student body and opportunities that the school offers now. I have only thought about this issue because I know someone in politics(not an actual official, just works around them) who lives in Ann Arbor and in our discussions I thought about how a serious problem (image, for attracting new business and tourism) could be affecting the school. It was then that I saw the relative declining apps.
Last edited by Flanker1067 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tamlyric
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby tamlyric » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 pm

.
Last edited by tamlyric on Sun May 09, 2010 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:43 pm

It is still the third best public school after Penn State and Virginia.

JRMjr
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby JRMjr » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:44 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
JRMjr wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:I have thought about this, and it looks as if the amount of applications that Michigan recieves is declining relative to other schools every year for the last 5 (all I have looked at, trend may be longer though) because less people want to go to Michigan, which is a state with many problems(I think, but ultimately my reason may be wrong but conclusion could still be right). However, these types of things take a long time to have any meanignful effect on the school, especially when they experience an increase in apps by 20% like they claimed this year. So in the meantime, the future of the state is in balance and will ultimately decide the fate of the school. If Detroit becomes a thriving city, then Mich is good, if Detroit becomes a ghost town, then Mich will slowly but surely decline.


Dear lord... was this serious? that might be the most uninformed opinion I have ever read on TLS.... and TLS is FULL of them.
-look at Michigan LSN numbers... it isnt hurting for qualified applicants BUT the pool of total applicants is flat or declining which means there are fewer well-informed applicants
-percentage of funding received from the state with many problems: 3%... therefore its not like they are short on funds to attract top teachers or students
-things take a long time to materialize.... correct but how long has Michigan been hurting? A long time (10+ years in steady decline)
-University fortune correlation to detroit's fortune = ~0%


My point has nothing to do with the students now. I agree, they have way more applicants then they need to make a good quality class. And admittedly the timeframe that it takes to have effect probably makes this irrelevant, but they are declining relative other schools (many of whom, cited a 30% or larger increase in apps this year). I also said nothing about funding, I don't think money will ever be the problem, but there are T2 schools that also have alot of money, and that isn't the problem for them either. It just has to do with image, and the ability of the school to draw the best applicants they can.


they are clearly receiving qualified applicants if you look at stats, past medians, etc... Also, other schools numbers are up 20-40% because there are record numbers of people taking the LSAT and everyone thinks its a great idea to "blanket" every school from 60-#1 with apps

oneforship
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby oneforship » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:45 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It is still the third best public school after Penn State and Virginia.


Better than SUNY-Greenwich Village?

nycparalegal
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:46 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It is still the third best public school after Penn State and Virginia.


For law school??

Penn State law school is ranked in the 60s.

oneforship
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby oneforship » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:46 pm

nycparalegal wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It is still the third best public school after Penn State and Virginia.


For law school??

Penn State law school is ranked in the 60s.


this joke





------------------------------




your head

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holydonkey
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby holydonkey » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:49 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
holydonkey wrote:This is ridiculous.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

OMG, looks like Michigan slipped in 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, and 2008!

/and improved or remained the same in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2009


Why is this ridiculous?


The chances that Michigan will suddenly fall out of the T13 in 3-4 years is extremely remote. Schools are aware of their ranking and how it effects hiring/reputation. If a T13 school suddenly seemed to be in danger of losing their status, they would just increase spending per student to maintain it or reverse the trend. Michigan's economy has been crappy for, at very minimum, the last decade and it hasn't moved Michigan out of the top ten. Michigan's ranking has been moving between 7-10 for decades and all of a sudden it's going to crash in a few years?

If we're going to focus so much on rankings, let's talk about hiring rankings. If we must choose a magazine ranking, let's choose Princeton Review for sh#$s and giggles. Here, Michigan ranks 3 in Best Career Prospects. Or look at how little Michigan's NLJ250 declined compared to the rest of the T13 this year. Now I grant you that some students will choose a school based solely on location, but most will choose the school that will give them a job. Michigan still wins here. The ranking will not move significantly until this isn't true.
Last edited by holydonkey on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:50 pm

Haha, Desert Fox, you sly bastard still getting the Penn State joke over people.

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toolshed
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby toolshed » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:51 pm

oneforship wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It is still the third best public school after Penn State and Virginia.


For law school??

Penn State law school is ranked in the 60s.


this joke





------------------------------




your head


This posting caused me to cachinnate audibly. If only there was a way to say this more succinctly...

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:52 pm

holydonkey wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
holydonkey wrote:This is ridiculous.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

OMG, looks like Michigan slipped in 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, and 2008!

/and improved or remained the same in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2009


Why is this ridiculous?


The chances that Michigan will suddenly fall out of the T13 in 3-4 years is extremely remote. Schools are aware of their ranking and how it effects hiring/reputation. If a T13 school suddenly seemed to be in danger of losing their status, they would just increase spending per student to maintain it or reverse the trend. Michigan's economy has been crappy for, at very minimum, the last decade and it hasn't moved Michigan out of the top ten. Michigan's ranking has been moving between 7-10 for decades and all of a sudden it's going to crash in a few years?

If we're going to focus so much on rankings, let's talk about hiring rankings. If we must choose a magazine ranking, let's choose Princeton Review for sh#$s and giggles. Here, Michigan ranks 3 in Best Career Prospects. Or look at how little Michigan's NLJ250 declined compared to the rest of the T13 this year. Now I grant you that some students will choose a school based solely on location, but most will choose the school that will give them a job. Michigan still wins here. The ranking will not move significantly until this is true.


Point taken. I was never looking at it from a 3-4 year perspective, and if the OP was then yep, you are right. As for the carrer prospects rankings, you have to be kidding me citing those here. They put both BU and BC above Harvard for career prospects because they do no accounting for anything like PI or Clerkships.

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holydonkey
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby holydonkey » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:56 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
holydonkey wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
holydonkey wrote:This is ridiculous.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

OMG, looks like Michigan slipped in 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, and 2008!

/and improved or remained the same in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2009


Why is this ridiculous?


The chances that Michigan will suddenly fall out of the T13 in 3-4 years is extremely remote. Schools are aware of their ranking and how it effects hiring/reputation. If a T13 school suddenly seemed to be in danger of losing their status, they would just increase spending per student to maintain it or reverse the trend. Michigan's economy has been crappy for, at very minimum, the last decade and it hasn't moved Michigan out of the top ten. Michigan's ranking has been moving between 7-10 for decades and all of a sudden it's going to crash in a few years?

If we're going to focus so much on rankings, let's talk about hiring rankings. If we must choose a magazine ranking, let's choose Princeton Review for sh#$s and giggles. Here, Michigan ranks 3 in Best Career Prospects. Or look at how little Michigan's NLJ250 declined compared to the rest of the T13 this year. Now I grant you that some students will choose a school based solely on location, but most will choose the school that will give them a job. Michigan still wins here. The ranking will not move significantly until this is true.


Point taken. I was never looking at it from a 3-4 year perspective, and if the OP was then yep, you are right. As for the carrer prospects rankings, you have to be kidding me citing those here. They put both BU and BC above Harvard for career prospects because they do no accounting for anything like PI or Clerkships.


If they included clerkships it would only help Michigan. If they included academia it would also help Michigan.

But it is pretty crazy to make arguments based on Princeton Review, I'll stick to US News from now on.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:08 pm

HolyDonkey,

I am just wondering, according to your last post, if you truly believe that Michigan's job prospects deserve a 1 or 2 ranking in the country? I am not arguing either way, it just seems from that last post that you might think Mich has better job prospects then 4 or 5 of YHSCC. I am interested to see if that is what you meant, and if anyone else agrees.

09042014
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:12 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:HolyDonkey,

I am just wondering, according to your last post, if you truly believe that Michigan's job prospects deserve a 1 or 2 ranking in the country? I am not arguing either way, it just seems from that last post that you might think Mich has better job prospects then 4 or 5 of YHSCC. I am interested to see if that is what you meant, and if anyone else agrees.


Not even close to 1 or 2:

HYS
CCN
MVPBDNC
G
Vandy-La-Tex

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holydonkey
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby holydonkey » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:31 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:HolyDonkey,

I am just wondering, according to your last post, if you truly believe that Michigan's job prospects deserve a 1 or 2 ranking in the country? I am not arguing either way, it just seems from that last post that you might think Mich has better job prospects then 4 or 5 of YHSCC. I am interested to see if that is what you meant, and if anyone else agrees.


No, I don't mean that. I mean:

1) Magazine rankings are retarded. If we're going to use any type of rankings, we should use NLJ, Vault, Clerkship, and Academia placement.
2) If we ignore point 1 and still use magazine rankings, the most important ranking is if going to this school will get you a job. Spending per student isn't important. Number of applications isn't important. Acceptance rate isn't important. Campus isn't important. Really, even LSAT and GPA average don't matter. What matters is if you will get a job. If these other factors effect that, they matter. If they don't, they don't matter.
3) There is no indication that Michigan graduates are having a harder time finding a job than graduates of other similarly ranked schools.
4) Based on point 3 and point 1, there is no evidence that Michigan is "slipping".

Flanker1067
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Flanker1067 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:43 pm

holydonkey wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:HolyDonkey,

I am just wondering, according to your last post, if you truly believe that Michigan's job prospects deserve a 1 or 2 ranking in the country? I am not arguing either way, it just seems from that last post that you might think Mich has better job prospects then 4 or 5 of YHSCC. I am interested to see if that is what you meant, and if anyone else agrees.


No, I don't mean that. I mean:

1) Magazine rankings are retarded. If we're going to use any type of rankings, we should use NLJ, Vault, Clerkship, and Academia placement.
2) If we ignore point 1 and still use magazine rankings, the most important ranking is if going to this school will get you a job. Spending per student isn't important. Number of applications isn't important. Acceptance rate isn't important. Campus isn't important. Really, even LSAT and GPA average don't matter. What matters is if you will get a job. If these other factors effect that, they matter. If they don't, they don't matter.
3) There is no indication that Michigan graduates are having a harder time finding a job than graduates of other similarly ranked schools.
4) Based on point 3 and point 1, there is no evidence that Michigan is "slipping".


Ok, I pretty much agree, except on the minor application and quality of student thing (although we are looking at it from very different timeframes). I just wanted to clearify, because people get very passionate about defending their school (or soon to be) and are prone to say things that don't make sense. I thought might be the case, but it isn't. The guy who responded to me before, JR something or other, did this. I mean, I am not even saying anything he said was wrong, because it wasn't, it just completely ignored the premise of my argument, the result we were discussing, or anything else mentioned in this thread. That kind of post, I think justifiably, bothers me because I am open to being convinced as I have nothing staked in this, but just inspires that hopeless feeling. Hopeless to convince, or be convinced, but I guess most would say "Welcome to TLS".




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