Picking a school, whats most important? Forum

[jelarcic]

I want to go to school for environmental law, but I live in Ohio and would like to practice nearby when I graduate. I also would like to leave law school with a manageable amount of debt. So, I am looking at Cleveland State, Oregon University, and Pace Law School.

I can commute to Cleveland State, it has the lowest tuition at 17,000 a year, but they are a third tier school with no recognition for environmental law.

Pace University is fairly close in White Plains, NY and is ranked 3rd nationally for environmental law despite being a 4th tier school. Tuition at Pace is a little more hefty at 40,000 a year, but the average scholarship is 20,000 so it shouldn't be to bad.

Oregon is ranked 9th nationally for environmental law, 77th overall, and has fairly cheap tuition at 27,000 for nonresidents and 22,000 once I become a resident. The only problem is job prospects seem to be mostly regional and not even that good (60% of graduates have jobs and 91% at 9 months).

If I am going for environmental law, should I be scared off by the 4th tier ranking of Pace? Also, how much would an Oregon University law degree lose value if I moved back to the Rust Belt? What is the best option here?!

[redes]

Vermont FTW

[BigFatPanda]

My impression of environmental law is that many job prospect are found in the public non-profit sector or government position. In that case, federal loan programs more than eliminate whatever debt you may have as long as you work in that field for 10 years. Further, the tier system is really for people who want to work 80 hours/week getting paid $160k (really two jobs) so don't let it get to you.

What about Vermont or U Maryland?

[darknightbegins]

IF you can get into Maryland then go. I tend to agree about the tier system. Limit debt and be able to be comfortable where you will be living should be among the most important factors.

[Veritas]

Do not got to Pace.

[OperaSoprano]

Do not got to Pace.

Hi Veritas!

This is likely excellent advice. If Pace gives you a full, guaranteed scholarship, that might be something to think about, but I would still worry about employment opportunities if you were not at the top of your class.

[ATOIsp07]

Do not got to Pace.

Hi Veritas!

This is likely excellent advice. If Pace gives you a full, guaranteed scholarship, that might be something to think about, but I would still worry about employment opportunities if you were not at the top of your class.

Haha! Is Pace really that bad?

[tallboone]

Vermont FTW

You sound like the ideal candidate for Vermont to be honest, as it is known for its environmental law program. http://www.vermontlaw.edu/Academics/Env ... enter.html

[vanwinkle]

If you want environmental law, then apply to Lewis & Clark, not Oregon. Though I agree with the other posters that you should seriously look at Vermont.

[SamSeaborn2016]

I want to go to school for environmental law, but I live in Ohio and would like to practice nearby when I graduate. I also would like to leave law school with a manageable amount of debt. So, I am looking at Cleveland State, University of Oregon, and Pace Law School.

I can commute to Cleveland State, it has the lowest tuition at 17,000 a year, but they are a third tier school with no recognition for environmental law.

Pace University is fairly close in White Plains, NY and is ranked 3rd nationally for environmental law despite being a 4th tier school. Tuition at Pace is a little more hefty at 40,000 a year, but the average scholarship is 20,000 so it shouldn't be to bad.

Oregon is ranked 9th nationally for environmental law, 77th overall, and has fairly cheap tuition at 27,000 for nonresidents and 22,000 once I become a resident. The only problem is job prospects seem to be mostly regional and not even that good (60% of graduates have jobs and 91% at 9 months).

If I am going for environmental law, should I be scared off by the 4th tier ranking of Pace? Also, how much would an University of Oregon law degree lose value if I moved back to the Rust Belt? What is the best option here?!

Just a couple of things. Getting in-state tuition at UO is impossible unless you were a resident for 12 months prior to school enrollment so if enter as a non-resident, they will not change your residency status for tuition purposes. Also, while Oregon is a solid school with pretty low cost, it is a primarily regional school and would probably not be particularly good for moving back out to the rust belt.

[underachiever]

If you want to work in Ohio, go to Cleveland State
If you want to work anywhere in environmental law, go to the cheapest school....b/c those US news "environmental law" rankings are crap, esp when it comes to getting jobs.

[insidethetwenty]

If you want to work anywhere in environmental law, go to the cheapest school....b/c those US news "environmental law" rankings are crap, esp when it comes to getting jobs.

[jelarcic]

Thanks for all the good info! Based off of that, my LSAT/GPA (160/3.28) , and a little research, I've changed my list of schools to Vermont, Oregon, and Lewis & Clark.

My only question mark is with Vermont...I agree that it is a great choice for environmental law, but they have relatively low Bar passage rates (76%). Vermont graduates do go on to practice in a large amount of different states so I was wondering if that may contribute. The employment rates at 9 months aren't bad but they aren't spectacular either (90%). Any thoughts/concerns with this?

[darknightbegins]

Any info on how well Vermont places in your desired area over Oregon or Lewis and Clark? How about prices for these three schools?

[barry zuckerkorn]

If you want to work anywhere in environmental law, go to the cheapest school....b/c those US news "environmental law" rankings are crap, esp when it comes to getting jobs.

Interesting example about why this is a mostly an overstatement, just met a dude whose daughter just passed the bar in Alaska, is working with legislators re: environmental ramifications of oil pipelines in Juneau and dropped a ton of money into Vermont law.

So while I'm anti-USNews, I'm very pro-fair, so I wouldn't say complete crap, "esp when it comes to getting jobs".

For my opinion on this thread, the most important factor is hotness/singleness of the opposite sex. Duh.

Second most important, way to variable b/c it changes from person to person. I'm not listing millions of factors here, the Olympics are on.

[insidethetwenty]

If you want to work anywhere in environmental law, go to the cheapest school....b/c those US news "environmental law" rankings are crap, esp when it comes to getting jobs.

Interesting example about why this is a mostly an overstatement, just met a dude whose daughter just passed the bar in Alaska, is working with legislators re: environmental ramifications of oil pipelines in Juneau and dropped a ton of money into Vermont law.

Oh, of course, excuse our error. Your single example of a single person absolutely trumps all the empirical data that supports our "overstatement".

[barry zuckerkorn]

If you want to work anywhere in environmental law, go to the cheapest school....b/c those US news "environmental law" rankings are crap, esp when it comes to getting jobs.

Interesting example about why this is a mostly an overstatement, just met a dude whose daughter just passed the bar in Alaska, is working with legislators re: environmental ramifications of oil pipelines in Juneau and dropped a ton of money into Vermont law.

Oh, of course, excuse our error. Your single example of a single person absolutely trumps all the empirical data that supports our "overstatement".

Ah sorry bud, and if I may, let me correct you again by saying, no, excuse me. Wasn't trying to trump whatever "empirical" data you're citing, but offer a first hand account that simply sheds a different light on the gross regurgitation of the consensus view, which was probably not what OP was looking for. Clearly, I'm overstepping (that is, only if you're comfortable with that "over-X") the bounds of an internet forum.

Though technically speaking, my example is more "empirical" than your "data", in the sense that it is an "experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory", than whatever data you're citing, which I'm sure no one else could find on any other thread on this site, ATL or autoadmit.

But yeah, again, this is strictly my error, not yours. I should have typed "over-statement", in the sense that we get it. USNews sucks. Jobs are slim. But that doesn't mean Vermont doesn't have a great Enviro. program and clout, and that even when large firms and gov't jobs are in the midst of slashing budgets and hiring freezes, recent grads aren't getting the jobs their schools suck so much at getting them, as my single example of a single person lends some insight into.

I agree with the "Vermont FTW" post, and please accept my sincerest of apologies.

-Barry Zuckerkorn

[ccs224]

There's a lot of threads on this that you might want to check out. One I would suggest is something like "Is T14 worth it for environmental law?" (don't worry, it doesn't just discuss environmental law.

You should also check out Gatorlion's rankings, which are more helpful than USNews: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?oi0ettiomyo

Definitely, I would add Vermont to your list, but I wouldn't rule out Pace. If you want to do nonprof's, it has a very strong reputation and is viewed just about equally as Vermont and L&C.

[insidethetwenty]

Ah sorry bud, and if I may, let me correct you again by saying, no, excuse me. Wasn't trying to trump whatever "empirical" data you're citing, but offer a first hand account that simply sheds a different light on the gross regurgitation of the consensus view, which was probably not what OP was looking for. Clearly, I'm overstepping (that is, only if you're comfortable with that "over-X") the bounds of an internet forum.

Though technically speaking, my example is more "empirical" than your "data", in the sense that it is an "experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory", than whatever data you're citing, which I'm sure no one else could find on any other thread on this site, ATL or autoadmit.

But yeah, again, this is strictly my error, not yours. I should have typed "over-statement", in the sense that we get it. USNews sucks. Jobs are slim. But that doesn't mean Vermont doesn't have a great Enviro. program and clout, and that even when large firms and gov't jobs are in the midst of slashing budgets and hiring freezes, recent grads aren't getting the jobs their schools suck so much at getting them, as my single example of a single person lends some insight into.

I agree with the "Vermont FTW" post, and please accept my sincerest of apologies.

-Barry Zuckerkorn

While your anecdote does provide insight into the possibility of getting a given job from Vermont (i.e. it is possible), it does nothing to disprove my (underachiever's) assertion that US News' EnviroLaw rankings are crap and that going to the cheapest school is the best decision.

The empirical evidence of which I speak is years of employment data gathered by the ABA that shows that there is no significant difference between any of the schools OP mentioned or Vermont in terms of getting a job practicing environmental law. Therefore, the reasonable conclusion is that the OP should take the least expensive option, rather than paying more for Vermont (or L&C or Oregon). In this case, Vermont may wind up being the least expensive option and I would most likely advise the OP to go there.

I apologize for being snide, but you have to admit that using a single piece anecdotal evidence to snobbishly disregard a well-reasoned assertion is pretty aggravating...

[ccs224]

OP should look through the staff bios of orgs s/he might be most interested. The Sierra Club has a decent amount of Vermont grads, if I remember correctly, while Environmental Defense shows a strong preference for grads from T14 schools.

Edit: Sorry, Earthjustice, not EDF.

[darknightbegins]

Just as long as there aren't any ELFs in there. That group can be a bit radical.

[ccs224]

Just as long as there aren't any ELFs in there. That group can be a bit radical.

Even ELFs need legal representation. Actually, that is something I would be totally interested in...

[darknightbegins]

Well everyone needs legal representation. The Al Qaeda and KKK scum bags need legal representation. That wasn't my point. Just I'd be hesitant to get in bed with these groups.

[sibley]

Do not got to Pace.

Hi Veritas!

This is likely excellent advice. If Pace gives you a full, guaranteed scholarship, that might be something to think about, but I would still worry about employment opportunities if you were not at the top of your class.

Plus (I'm not sure what you're on), Pace is a freaking insane trek from Ohio. You might as well be in Oregon because you're going to have to fly either way. Unless you enjoy spending your study time driving.

[ccs224]

Well everyone needs legal representation. The Al Qaeda and KKK scum bags need legal representation. That wasn't my point. Just I'd be hesitant to get in bed with these groups.

The fact that someone would lump the ELF together with the KKK or Al'Qaeda is partly why I would love to work for their defense. Fact is, the ALF and ELF have never done anything remotely similar to those groups (burning down a mcmansion and releasing some mink does not a 9/11 or lynching make). Plus, have you ever seen any ELF kids? A lot of them are pretty sexy. I wouldn't mind getting into bed with them.