cardozo (full-ride) v. NYU transfer

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oldtransfer
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cardozo (full-ride) v. NYU transfer

Postby oldtransfer » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:32 pm

Anyone have thoughts on the wisdom of transferring from Cardozo (full-ride) to NYU? I was just accepted as an NYU transfer, and am wondering if the cachet is worth the $80k and disruption of what has been a very positive experience thus far. I doubt the transfer will do much for my immediate career prospects - I'm at the top of my class at Cardozo so I'm sure I'll get plenty of interviews at the same firms that interview at NYU, and I'm actually a little worried that jumping into the middle of the NYU process will leave me at a disadvantage versus their current students. I'll also have to fight to get on a journal, etc. Another consideration is that I'm old (30) and married w/a kid on the way, so I have both less time to repay debt and more reasons to be debt averse. Thanks for any advice.

hoyablue

Postby hoyablue » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:42 pm

Yes. Transfer. It's a huge jump

Even at the top of your class, more top firms probably hire at NYU than at Cardozo. Also, the NYU degree is more portable.

Awoooga
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Postby Awoooga » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:19 pm

most people on here are prestige whores (not bad just sounds bad) so I doubt you'll get alot of Cardozo votes but I would stay. Why not? You said it yourself, if you don't transfer your going to get a great job anyway. After that, it all depends on your performance and while having a NYU degree will look really really good, I wouldn't pay 80+k for that piece of paper when I have a job anyway.

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breakz
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Postby breakz » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:50 pm

Even at the top of your class, more top firms probably hire at NYU than at Cardozo. Also, the NYU degree is more portable.


Even if OP is top of the class? And he'll have two years of debt to pay down that would hinder his ability to save for retirement, etc.?

How big is this jump, especially with people talking about the diverse number of people hired at great law firms?

I'd personally say the risk is too high, especially with a family. Stay at Cardozo, keep doing what you do, and you'll be guaranteed a great position somewhere.

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breakz
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Postby breakz » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:51 pm

And, as an aside: normally, I'm one of those prestige whores. However, OP has a unique situation--he's already knee-deep in law school.

Would the expected gains really be higher than the loan hit, potential drop in grades, and psychic costs (i.e. networking, getting adjusted to NYU, higher competition for review, etc.)? He's graduating at 32, not 25--and that's a BIG financial difference.

awesomepossum
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Postby awesomepossum » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:08 am

I have a question. Are you more likely to tell people more frequently that you COULD have transferred to NYU if you don't or to tell people you transferred from Cardozo if you do.

All I know is I hope you don't brag about how you could have gone to NYU if you don't .... because that's an admission that you made a poor poor decision. People saying that kind of stuff sounds so sour. "I could have gone to an Ivy undergrad.... I could have f the prom queen.... blah blah blah blah"

32 vs 25 doesn't make that much difference. You have a 30 year career ahead of you anyway. Plus.... just because you had one good year at Cardozo doesn't necessarily mean it's 'in the bag' does it?

typical1L
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Postby typical1L » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:37 am

What exactly is the 'risk' here? You've demonstrated that you can perform at a high level in law school, and there's no reason to expect that you will suddenly find yourself in the bottom or even near median at NYU. Transfer, for the love of god.

awesomepossum
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Postby awesomepossum » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:42 am

no doubt.

lordarka
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Postby lordarka » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:34 am

I feel your pain, though for me the disruption is even greater; I was admitted as a transfer at UCLA, which is less than 2h away from home, and after registering and picking out my classes, I was admitted at NYU. I'm going. For reference, I am also 30, and about to get married here in San Diego. My financial situation is not as divergent as yours (NYU will cost me about $15,000 per year more than UCLA), but the move to NYC for this SoCal'er will be hugely disruptive.

I'm doing it anyway. I can't turn them down, even from UCLA. If you're coming out of Cardozo, I think it's a no brainer; just do it!

typical1L
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Postby typical1L » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:05 am

Sigh. People making well-informed, rational decisions... brings a tear to my eye.

[/poignancy]

-arbitrary valuation change to 1.2
quota fulfilled

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breakz
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Postby breakz » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:39 am

Good luck to both of you.

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Katkins
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Postby Katkins » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:08 am

Plus.... just because you had one good year at Cardozo doesn't necessarily mean it's 'in the bag' does it?


This is so tcr. Anything can happen in the next two years... you may end up at the median or even the bottom of your class. If that happens, you're better off being in that position at NYU than at Cardozo. There's just no comparison.

buffalo-best
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Postby buffalo-best » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:39 am

just out of curiousity what were your numbers that you got in for transfer? coollege gpa/law grades/ LSAT etc.

and I say NYU, you alrdy have shown you can suceed at law school, NYU will get you farther and you'll be able to pay the 80k down easy with a biglaw job

Awoooga
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Postby Awoooga » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:04 am

Dude, he's getting that big law job right now. OCI's are based of first year grades and once your in, unless you f up majorly, your in.

hoyablue

Postby hoyablue » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:10 am

Sigh. People making well-informed, rational decisions... brings a tear to my eye.

[/poignancy]

-arbitrary valuation change to 1.2
quota fulfilled



And the Oscar goes to...

oldtransfer
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Postby oldtransfer » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:34 pm

Thanks for the thoughts - quite helpful, particularly the UCLA person - that does put it in perspective. I am leaning transfer. The most compelling factors are 1) $80k isn't that much over the course of a career; 2) I really like law school, and, given that I only get to do it once, want to do everything I can to get the most out of it; 3) I have no idea where we're going to settle in the long-run; 4) I'm interested in academics, and I'm told you need to be top-5 for that; 5) I certainly would have gone to NYU versus Cardozo full-ride if I'd gotten in last year, so I'm afraid I'd be sticking around out of complacency or big-fish syndrome; and 6) the only way to ensure that I don't tell people at parties that I could have transferred is by transferring (then I can say I would have been first in my class if I hadn’t transferred).

FYI, my numbers are: UG GPA (Ivy) - 2.98; LSAT 169; LS GPA 3.999 (As in everything except a B-plus in a half-term intro to law class).

hoyablue

Postby hoyablue » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:06 pm

Soo.... 3.999 huh? Any study tips for the rising 1L's here?

:wink:

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mtb710
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Postby mtb710 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:08 pm

given that I only get to do it once, want to do everything I can to get the most out of it; 3) I have no idea where we're going to settle in the long-run; 4) I'm interested in academics, and I'm told you need to be top-5 for that;


I'm like-minded in all three of these respects, and these would make the decision to transfer a lock. You don't have to go to a top 5 to go into academics, but it sure helps. A lot. Especially if you want to teach at a T1 school.

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Pyke
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Postby Pyke » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:48 pm

Please transfer.

buffalo-best
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Postby buffalo-best » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:37 pm

if you have any interest in academia goto NYU it will help tremendously

Awoooga
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Postby Awoooga » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:55 pm

Wow a 3.999 haha you should've just rounded it up. I would've shot higher than NYU with that but I guess your family makes it hard to make a larger scale HYS move (assuming transfer entry). Listen, either way your fine. I wouldn't look at it as 80k. It's 80k tax free (real world dollars ~120k?) and that doesn't include the interest rate on the loans so probably closer to 90k net or 135k in earnings.

You will have no problem getting a top flight job out of Cardozo with those numbers. Cardozo is an excellent school with a great reputation in NYC. Sure it's no NYU/CLS but it is very well respected and with a 4.0 your set. As an older applicant with a family, I would take the lower debt. rhymes :)

lordarka
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Postby lordarka » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:16 pm

If you have any interest in academia, as I do, this discussion is over. You want to transfer to NYU, debt be damned. You don't get these opportunities back. NYU will not only significantly enhance the possibility of getting a clerkship, but will also allow you to teach at some of the best law schools in the country. You are ranking up from Tier 2 to the number 5 or 4 law school in the country, depending on what rankings you look at. It's in the same region as where you are now, so the disruption is modest at best. Just go, and I'll see you there!

Arka C.

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OperaAttorney
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Postby OperaAttorney » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:47 pm

CARDOZO!!!

You are at the top of your class, and you will graduate law school debt-free!! You're also used to the Cardozo system, which has worked well for you so far. Why rock the boat?

Moreover, you're responsible for yourself AND your family. Don't let the prestige chase fool you. CARDOZO is well-respected throughout the country. It's also noted as an up and coming law school, which means it will probably displace some of the higher ranked schools within the next decade.

Keep up the good work, and you will land an AWESOME job in NY. My buddy graduated from Brooklyn law at the top of his class, and started at one of New York's biggest firms, making the same as his Harvard/Columbia peers.

lordarka
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Postby lordarka » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:21 am

Opera:

The OP has possible academic aspirations. To stay at Cardozo would effectively destroy those aspirations... period. On the other hand, going to NYU is almost like being handed the keys to the door, and their support for aspiring academicians, plus their incredible prestige and reputation, blow Cardozo out of the water.

The man has already saved a lot of money by spending his first year at Cardozo. He will likely make much of his tuition back while working a summer internship, which means that he basically is taking out loans for a year, maybe a year and a half. Under these circumstances, staying at a Tier 2 while having the opportunity to go up to a top five is ludicrous.

Just to give you a sense of how different things are.. all of the OCI at my pre-transfer law school was run on a system where the firms pre-screen you on Symplicity, and you basically pray/beg to be selected. I just scheduled interviews a few days ago through Columbia's OCI, and it is exactly the opposite; you choose the firms, and they sit and wait for you to show up for the interview. On the West Coast, two firms who originally declined to interview me at the Midwest-Cali jobs fair agreed to do so almost immediately after I told them I was accepted as a transfer at both NYU and Columbia, and was likely to attend the latter.

2/3 of NYU's and Columbia's grads work at top 25 firms; the rest clerk. The best firms in NY are full of Columbia and NYU grads; look to see how many Cardozo grads are working at Wachtell, and compare to NYU... it is quite likely that a guy who's top of his class at Cardozo will be top quarter or top ten at NYU, which means that his opportunities are vastly expanded; clerkships, academia, or firms. Do the same at Cardozo, and he might get a clerkship, will have a hell of time getting a teaching post, but will likely get a decent job at a firm. If he is even remotely interested in working at a place other than a law firm, he would crazy to follow your advice. Prestige matters, especially when you're talking about the top 5... $60,000 in loans is nothing when amortized over the rest of your professional life... I'll make back my Columbia loans when I get my first signing bonus coming off a Federal clerkship; I'm much more likely to get that clerkship from Columbia than I would from my prior institution. Same is true for NYU, which is Columbia's equal in just about every respect.

typical1L
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Postby typical1L » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:30 am

Excellent post. I hope the op doesn't take OperaAttorney's advice; the single example of a BLS grad who works at a firm paying market salary (aren't there almost two hundred of them in NYC alone?) doesn't adequately demonstrate that Cardozo will provide similar opportunities to NYU (it won't).

NYU is also a school on the rise, as demonstrated by its ascent through the rankings (ten years ago it was probably in 9th-10th place). Especially for academia, a top 6 school is basically a prerequisite. And lordarka is right that the first and second year are really the most expensive. A large portion of the third year can be paid with earnings from a summer associateship (even after taxes and living expenses, you can probably pocket $12-15k).




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