HYSCCN Forum

[Doritos]

Is the HYSCCN cluster that much better than the rest of the T10? Now are the prospects coming out of MVPB (suck it B) significantly worse than HYSCCN? It seems I read a lot about how awesome HYSCCN is and it seems kinda weird that it's top 6 v. top 10. I would think that the gap wouldn't be that ridiculous but drop some wisdom on me TLS.

[dextermorgan]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

[Renzo]

Is the HYSCCN cluster that much better than the rest of the T10? Now are the prospects coming out of MVPB (suck it B) significantly worse than HYSCCN? It seems I read a lot about how awesome HYSCCN is and it seems kinda weird that it's top 6 v. top 10. I would think that the gap wouldn't be that ridiculous but drop some wisdom on me TLS.

The differences are real, but also small. I think that more important than worrying about T6 vs. T10 is worrying about where you want to work, what kind of work you want to do, and where you'll enjoy going to school.

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

This is bad advice, and untrue. There are some 2L's at my school who are sweating, but it's a small percentage and far from half the class.

[Aeon]

Is the HYSCCN cluster that much better than the rest of the T10? Now are the prospects coming out of MVPB (suck it B) significantly worse than HYSCCN? It seems I read a lot about how awesome HYSCCN is and it seems kinda weird that it's top 6 v. top 10. I would think that the gap wouldn't be that ridiculous but drop some wisdom on me TLS.

The differences are real, but also small. I think that more important than worrying about T6 vs. T10 is worrying about where you want to work, what kind of work you want to do, and where you'll enjoy going to school.

Good advice. Going to any T10 school puts you in a great position to find a good job after LS.

[postitnotes]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

This is the general consensus on autoadmit, although it may be less than half struggling. I think TLS is oftentimes more annoyingly optimistic than it should be.

[kurama20]

A lot of it is going to depend on where you want to work. The gap between HYS and the rest of the top 14 is larger than the rest of the schools though. But again where you want to work is going to make a huge difference. For example Stanford is going to kill any school but HY and B on the west coast. On the east coast though it really isn't much better than Columbia and Chicago. NYU is going to be better than any of MBVP in NYC, other than that though there isn't a difference. Cornell and GULC are somewhat weaker than the rest of the top 14.

Honestly, if you are looking for the kind of difference where being below median at one school means you're fine and being at another means you're not, you're basically looking at HYS vs the rest of the top 14.

[bighead715]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

This is the general consensus on autoadmit, although it may be less than half struggling. I think TLS is oftentimes more annoyingly optimistic than it should be.

well it seems retarded to me that only 3 law schools in the entire country give their students jobs...so sorry if i dont buy everyone else's anecdotal pessimism

[Renzo]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

This is the general consensus on autoadmit, although it may be less than half struggling. I think TLS is oftentimes more annoyingly optimistic than it should be.

Just as autoadmit is annoyingly pessimistic, racist, and infantile than it should be.

[rayiner]

Honestly, if you are looking for the kind of difference where being below median at one school means you're fine and being at another means you're not, you're basically looking at HYS vs the rest of the top 14.

This.

The general consensus seems to be that top 1/3 is safe everywhere in the T14, but middle 1/3 is safe only at YHS. From there it's a spectrum, with CCN being somewhat safer and the rest of the T14 somewhat less so.

Also, the bit about "it seems I read a lot about how awesome HYSCCN is and it seems kinda weird that it's top 6 v. top 10" cracked me up. What on earth would make you think that hiring would follow the nice round intervals on the USNWR rankings?

[PDaddy]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

Scary. That's like hearing that NCAA All-Americans might not get drafted into the NBA. if you're just a really good but unheralded player who was hoping to get drafted second round or get some tryouts, you're sunk.

[bighead715]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

Scary. That's like hearing that NCAA All-Americans might not get drafted into the NBA. if you're just a really good but unheralded player who was hoping to get drafted second round or get some tryouts, you're sunk.

dont forget the world ends in 2012. clowns.

[kurama20]

Honestly, if you are looking for the kind of difference where being below median at one school means you're fine and being at another means you're not, you're basically looking at HYS vs the rest of the top 14.

This.

The general consensus seems to be that top 1/3 is safe everywhere in the T14, but middle 1/3 is safe only at YHS. From there it's a spectrum, with CCN being somewhat safer and the rest of the T14 somewhat less so.

Also, the bit about "it seems I read a lot about how awesome HYSCCN is and it seems kinda weird that it's top 6 v. top 10" cracked me up. What on earth would make you think that hiring would follow the nice round intervals on the USNWR rankings?

To be fair , A LOT of people on here talk like it DOES. I'm not just talking people applying to schools either, a lot of the first semester students on here talk like that too. They act like region, grades, and resume mean nothing at all (they also seem to forget just how much the US News ranking fluctuate). The OP isn't alone in thinking that way, and if he's getting his info mainly from this site's personal feelings that is exactly how I would expect him to view things.

[Doritos]

Yeah Kurama's got it right I think. I feel like I hear the HYSCCN cluster referenced a lot on this site and was just curious how much better T6 would be v. T10. From this site it seems there's tiers in the T14...HYS..CCN...MVPB...DCNG. Also, do not take offense if your letter is after a letter you don't think it should be. I understand Penn is no Yale but is the gap between Columbia and say Michigan that huge? Clicking on my profile will help you understand why this interests me. Renzo and Aeon's posts seem the most reasonable to me. Probably because it's in my best interest for them to be right

[hiro86]

Yeah Kurama's got it right I think. I feel like I hear the HYSCCN cluster referenced a lot on this site and was just curious how much better T6 would be v. T10. From this site it seems there's tiers in the T14...HYS..CCN...MVPB...DCNG. Also, do not take offense if your letter is after a letter you don't think it should be. I understand Penn is no Yale but is the gap between Columbia and say Michigan that huge? Clicking on my profile will help you understand why this interests me. Renzo and Aeon's posts seem the most reasonable to me. Probably because it's in my best interest for them to be right

In the latest biglaw placement stats that we have (2008), Columbia placed 70% in biglaw versus 55% for Michigan. So, there definitely is a difference. The lowest percentage for CCN was NYU at 65%. I'm not sure if the gap will widen or not with the current economy, but this is something to consider. Of course these numbers can be thrown off based on the percentage of the class that goes for clerkships, PI, etc.

[kurama20]

Yeah Kurama's got it right I think. I feel like I hear the HYSCCN cluster referenced a lot on this site and was just curious how much better T6 would be v. T10. From this site it seems there's tiers in the T14...HYS..CCN...MVPB...DCNG. Also, do not take offense if your letter is after a letter you don't think it should be. I understand Penn is no Yale but is the gap between Columbia and say Michigan that huge? Clicking on my profile will help you understand why this interests me. Renzo and Aeon's posts seem the most reasonable to me. Probably because it's in my best interest for them to be right

In the latest biglaw placement stats that we have (2008), Columbia placed 70% in biglaw versus 55% for Michigan. So, there definitely is a difference. The lowest percentage for CCN was NYU at 65%. I'm not sure if the gap will widen or not with the current economy, but this is something to consider. Of course these numbers can be thrown off based on the percentage of the class that goes for clerkships, PI, etc.

That's very misleading info. You're talking about nlj250 numbers. The nlj250 firms are not by any means all, or even most, of biglaw in the US. Those numbers are heavily heavily NYC biased and biased. That's why you have CLS doing so well in that thing (better than HYS actually). Michigan for example sends a lot of people to Cali and DC, oftentimes to litigation firms that are smaller and actually more selective than NYC big law. Same for Stanford and Boalt. UVA and Duke send a lot of people to big law firms in the south (firms that also don't pop up on the nlj250). It's not that CLS is placing 70 percent in biglaw and Michigan is placing only 55. Now if you are looking for NYC transactional work then that is a great metric to use (which a lot of people are) but otherwise you need to look at all of the data. Note I am not saying this to say that CLS doesn't out do Michigan, only to say that those numbers are not the way to look at it.

[hiro86]

Yeah Kurama's got it right I think. I feel like I hear the HYSCCN cluster referenced a lot on this site and was just curious how much better T6 would be v. T10. From this site it seems there's tiers in the T14...HYS..CCN...MVPB...DCNG. Also, do not take offense if your letter is after a letter you don't think it should be. I understand Penn is no Yale but is the gap between Columbia and say Michigan that huge? Clicking on my profile will help you understand why this interests me. Renzo and Aeon's posts seem the most reasonable to me. Probably because it's in my best interest for them to be right

In the latest biglaw placement stats that we have (2008), Columbia placed 70% in biglaw versus 55% for Michigan. So, there definitely is a difference. The lowest percentage for CCN was NYU at 65%. I'm not sure if the gap will widen or not with the current economy, but this is something to consider. Of course these numbers can be thrown off based on the percentage of the class that goes for clerkships, PI, etc.

That's very misleading info. You're talking about nlj250 numbers. The nlj250 firms are not by any means all, or even most, of biglaw in the US. Those numbers are heavily heavily NYC biased and biased. That's why you have CLS doing so well in that thing (better than HYS actually). Michigan for example sends a lot of people to Cali and DC, oftentimes to litigation firms that are smaller and actually more selective than NYC big law. Same for Stanford and Boalt. UVA and Duke send a lot of people to big law firms in the south (firms that also don't pop up on the nlj250). It's not that CLS is placing 70 percent in biglaw and Michigan is placing only 55. Now if you are looking for NYC transactional work then that is a great metric to use (which a lot of people are) but otherwise you need to look at all of the data. Note I am not saying this to say that CLS doesn't out do Michigan, only to say that those numbers are not the way to look at it.

I think you are exaggerating how misleading the stats are. Of course you have to account for HYS sending lots of students into clerkships or boutiques or whatever. But for the rest of the schools I don't think the numbers are as far off as you contend.
Those numbers are the most accurate thing I have seen for judging big law placement. Also, the largest 250 firms probably do the vast majority of the hiring for big law (larger firms naturally tend to hire more people). I'm not saying that the nlj 250 numbers are perfect, but I have yet to see something better. I have been looking at the stats for V100 placement at http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/ more often lately, but I feel that these are likely less reliable (older and based on an even smaller group of firms). Once again, I can't really be sure though.

A final note is that while I have my biases, Michigan is the only school that has offered me any money yet. So I have little reason to be biased against it.

[02082010]

HYSCC is TCR.

[Renzo]

Yeah Kurama's got it right I think. I feel like I hear the HYSCCN cluster referenced a lot on this site and was just curious how much better T6 would be v. T10. From this site it seems there's tiers in the T14...HYS..CCN...MVPB...DCNG. Also, do not take offense if your letter is after a letter you don't think it should be. I understand Penn is no Yale but is the gap between Columbia and say Michigan that huge? Clicking on my profile will help you understand why this interests me. Renzo and Aeon's posts seem the most reasonable to me. Probably because it's in my best interest for them to be right

In the latest biglaw placement stats that we have (2008), Columbia placed 70% in biglaw versus 55% for Michigan. So, there definitely is a difference. The lowest percentage for CCN was NYU at 65%. I'm not sure if the gap will widen or not with the current economy, but this is something to consider. Of course these numbers can be thrown off based on the percentage of the class that goes for clerkships, PI, etc.

That's very misleading info. You're talking about nlj250 numbers. The nlj250 firms are not by any means all, or even most, of biglaw in the US.

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

[ravens20]

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

I agree that HYS are the only ones that seem to be largely unaffected by the economy, but I question the bolded part of your statement. I've talked to several current students at both Columbia and NYU and from what I've heard it seems that the numbers look better than you are implying. Students around median did decently in OCI even in this economy (although receiving far less callbacks than is typical for students at these schools) and even a few below median students apparently got a callback or two, so I'm not sure it is fair to say they are "struggling".

As for the greater point of this thread, I doubt the differences between CCN and MVPB are all that significant. As some other posters have suggested, it makes sense to consider where you want to live and work. For instance, if you like the DC market then I don't see how anyone could go wrong with picking UVA over CCN.

[Aeon]

Yeah Kurama's got it right I think. I feel like I hear the HYSCCN cluster referenced a lot on this site and was just curious how much better T6 would be v. T10. From this site it seems there's tiers in the T14...HYS..CCN...MVPB...DCNG. Also, do not take offense if your letter is after a letter you don't think it should be. I understand Penn is no Yale but is the gap between Columbia and say Michigan that huge? Clicking on my profile will help you understand why this interests me. Renzo and Aeon's posts seem the most reasonable to me. Probably because it's in my best interest for them to be right

In the latest biglaw placement stats that we have (2008), Columbia placed 70% in biglaw versus 55% for Michigan. So, there definitely is a difference. The lowest percentage for CCN was NYU at 65%. I'm not sure if the gap will widen or not with the current economy, but this is something to consider. Of course these numbers can be thrown off based on the percentage of the class that goes for clerkships, PI, etc.

I hate to pull out the "self-selection" argument, but couldn't one argue that those who attend Columbia might already be more inclined to pursue BigLaw jobs? Or do they pursue BigLaw jobs because they attend Columbia?

[ihatelaw]

HYSCC is TCR.

bs. you can argue that CC are better schools in some ways, i may not always agree but thats at least reasonable. however, nyu has a step up on most schools simply for the fact that it can send so many people to biglaw in nyc. the vast majority of law school students in the t14 go to nlj250 firms and not to boutiques, prestigious clerkships, or academia. what matters for most people in the t14 is just that: which t14s can get you a job in standard biglaw (and probably in ny since thats the largest market). NYU and Columbia will always have that boost because of their NYC connections.

ITE there is HYS, and then everyone else. People median and below at CCN are struggling (and many are regretting paying sticker).

This is the general consensus on autoadmit, although it may be less than half struggling. I think TLS is oftentimes more annoyingly optimistic than it should be.

Just as autoadmit is annoyingly pessimistic, racist, and infantile than it should be.

TLS is overly optimistic sometimes but I think saying that CCN are struggling is extreme. most of the students at CCN are still getting the jobs they want. there are select cases of people above median getting screwed but its rare. there is too much anecdotal evidence to actually show that CCN is struggling and not enough numbers . even at below median people are still getting biglaw jobs at these schools. yea, it might not be at s&c but for most law students its the market salary that matters.

[najumobi]

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

by market rate do you mean 160k? if so, then you're probably right. but there are definitely biglaw opportunities that pay ~85k/yr. (for instance some in WV and probably other secondary and tertiary markets)

[ravens20]

HYSCC is TCR.

The differences between CC and N are pretty damn marginal; NYU is very much a peer school of Columbia and Chicago. But more importantly, the differences between the "tier" of CCN and MVPB are similarly marginal. Any of those schools is going to open doors for you...which doors they open is a function of the specific strengths and location of those schools. Perhaps CCN may open a few more doors but the difference is slight enough that it shouldn't be a deciding concern for anyone.

[ravens20]

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

by market rate do you mean 160k? if so, then you're probably right. but there are definitely biglaw opportunities that pay ~85k/yr. (for instance some in WV and probably other secondary and tertiary markets)

Hmmm...I always thought biglaw meant firms that paid a certain rate (perhaps adjusted for the cost of living) not the size of the firm.

[Renzo]

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

by market rate do you mean 160k? if so, then you're probably right. but there are definitely biglaw opportunities that pay ~85k/yr. (for instance some in WV and probably other secondary and tertiary markets)

Tertiary markets, WV, and $85k all fall outside the traditional notions of "biglaw"