T14 worth it for environmental law?

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tasteofred
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T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby tasteofred » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:50 pm

I'm still about a year away from application time but I'm currently on track to get T14 numbers, but I'm just about sure I want to go into environmental and/or animal law. Yes, that absolutely means I'm a tree hugging, vegan, animal rights nut, but I'm not here to talk about that.

What I'm wondering is would it be worth it to go to a T14 at sticker (my "dream school" is NYU) over a school like Lewis and Clark, with the #1 rated environmental law program, and what looks like a great animal law program as well. Especially if I keep my numbers high and manage to get financial aid? Does anyone have any placement info on Lewis and Clark graduates?

postitnotes
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby postitnotes » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:52 pm

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Last edited by postitnotes on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chadwick218
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:00 pm

I think that L&C is great school, but unless you have strong ties to the pacific northwest, I would not attend L&C over any T14. Despite their specialty programs, attenting a T14 will ultimately give you more flexibility.

tasteofred
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby tasteofred » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:06 pm

chadwick218 wrote:I think that L&C is great school, but unless you have strong ties to the pacific northwest, I would not attend L&C over any T14. Despite their specialty programs, attenting a T14 will ultimately give you more flexibility.


I don't have any ties anywhere, essentially. I'd just like to be in Seattle, Portland, one of may CA cities, or NYC. No family or anything of the sort anywhere. I'm more worried about my financial situation coming out of LS when I want to work for non-profits or animal rights groups. And already have 15k+ in medical bills and will have 20k or so in UG debt.

FreshPrince
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby FreshPrince » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:08 pm

Why not the best of both worlds?

T14 + great environmental program = Berkeley/Stanford.

And, if you get to law school, realize you love to eat meat and want to drive a gas guzzling SUV, you will still have great prospects to go into any other type of law you want.

postitnotes
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby postitnotes » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:10 pm

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Last edited by postitnotes on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

tasteofred
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby tasteofred » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:05 pm

FreshPrince wrote:Why not the best of both worlds?

T14 + great environmental program = Berkeley/Stanford.

And, if you get to law school, realize you love to eat meat and want to drive a gas guzzling SUV, you will still have great prospects to go into any other type of law you want.


I doubt I'll have a chance at Stanford, but I hardly thought of Berkeley, I'll add it to my list.

Thanks!

tasteofred
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby tasteofred » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:07 pm

postitnotes wrote:You should to apply to all of the t14 and see which one offers the most aid, while looking at the LRAPs. I'd personally pay full price to go to NYU over all the schools listed in here so far, except Stanford. I think NYU has the best LRAP out of the bunch too.


Oh wow, I didn't think environmental or animal law qualified for LRAP. Well, I guess if I went into government, right?

guimoman
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby guimoman » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:05 pm

Here are some quick points to take into consideration.

1. Environmental Law (EL) and Animal Rights Law (ARL) is one of the fastest growing legal sectors in the market with projections over the next 5 years surpassing 25%.

2. There are not enough T25 law students with specializations in EL/ARL entering the market.

3. EL/ARL doesn't pay the big bucks, which decreases up-and-coming law student's inclination towards working in the sector.

I went through the same dilemma last year so let me give you some advice. I apologize in advance if I offend the forum, but when it comes to EL most of you are misinformed.

So last year I went through the cycle took the lsat and did poorly. I didn't really sweat it because I had already had my sights on 7 schools, with only 2 of them T14. I got accepted into Vermont Law, Lewis and Clark, waitlisted at Pace and UIUC. I discovered this forum a few months before the application deadline to law school and missed the chance to apply to better tier schools. After much reading on the site I became very depressed about my chances at securing a job after law school. With the law market as bad as it was/is I became convinced that law school out side of a T14 would be suicide. In short, I let the forum influence my decision. I decided not to attend VL or L&C and wait until 2011 to try for law school again.

Now here is what blows. For the past year I've been working with an Environmental Conservation group in NYC. As well as working with the City of NY as an Environmental Policy liaison. The job has allowed me to really pick the brains of top ranking Environmentalists in public office, the United Nations and non-profit legal groups (WWF, NRDC, etc.) Here is the gist of what all of them say.

*To make this easier I'm just going to use VL as an example, but in reality this applies to the top 3 env. law school programs. T25 in this case excludes HYS*

A T25 student almost always gets the job over someone from Tier 2 - 4 EXCEPT if they graduated from one of the top 3 environmental law schools. In these circumstances the review panel takes into heavy consideration the curriculum. If a VL graduate with a higher GPA then a graduate from say Duke/North Western/ UPenn was up for an interview and they both had the same extracurricular qualifications a VL graduate would have an edge over the other. "Graduating from VL with a curriculum revolving around EL lets us know that you are passionate about EL and that you have committed to fully integrating yourself into that field. Whereas a graduate from a T25 law school who has little to no experience in EL is ALMOST ALWAYS scrutinized with suspicion." Lead Hiring Manager and Director of the Review Board for... He went on to explain that those who graduate from high ranking law schools with no apparent interest in EL are usually not hired if a candidate from say VL or Pace with a comparable GPA is available. They feel that in too many instances the candidate from the high ranking school is a "drifter", someone trying to find any job to pay the bills until a better opportunity comes along. When it comes to EL/ARL, cases last decades and if the staff is going to be continuously changing it significantly lowers the chances of a victory. Remember that firms and agencies are looking for long term retention from their employees. This is more likely with a graduate from VL then one from T25 with no EL interests.
I'm not trying to say that a VL grad will always be hired over a T25 grad, but I am saying that the top 50% of VL grads get placed working for NRDC, EDF, Municipal and State Conservation Agencies, EPA, WWF. If you attend VL and place in the top 50% of your class the chances of being hired as an EL/ARL are better then the average placement of most T25.
A strong GPA from VL will get you a job in the EL/ARL sector straight after graduation. In fact, three of the people I met graduated from Pace Law and they were hired after having completed their externships. two of them work for EDF, and one of them works with the UN. I've ran into a few who now work as high level policy analysts drafting environmental legislation who graduated less then 7 years ago. One went to NYU, one went to Georgetown, and another one graduated from Lewis and Clark when it was rated #3 in EL. All three of them work together out of the same office. The others I know all graduated from T14 schools, BUT they based their curriculum around Environmental Law. VL, L&C, and Pace are great law schools if you are committed to EL/ARL.

With all that you should be able to make an informed decision. I highly recommend you apply to the top 6 Environmental Law Programs
Vermont Law - http://www.vermontlaw.edu/
Lewis and Clark - http://www.lclark.edu/law/centers/animal_law_studies/
Pace University - --LinkRemoved-- --LinkRemoved--
Georgetown - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/gelpi/
UC Berkeley - http://www.law.berkeley.edu/148.htm , http://www.law.berkeley.edu/clee.htm
UC Boulder - http://www.colorado.edu/law/centers/

And these T25 schools that also happen to rank in the Top 20 Environmental Law Programs

NYU - http://www.law.nyu.edu/centers/elc/index.htm
Columbia - http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/ ... ron_at_cls
Yale - http://envirocenter.research.yale.edu/
Harvard - --LinkRemoved--
Stanford - http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/centers/enrlp/
Boston College - http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/services/ ... s/els.html

Remember a graduate from a T25 and a concentration in EL/ARL will have priority over a VL/LC/PACE graduate in nearly every instance. But also remember that EL is one of the fastest growing legal professions, and Environmental Policy is also one of the fastest growing professions. As an Environmental Lawyer you can work both. There are not enough law students with EL/ARL specialization in the country to meet the demand. So when you apply and when you accept take all this into consideration. A full scholly to VL/LC/Pace is IMHO better then any T25 w/out scholly that lacks a Loan Forgiveness/Repayment program for public sector employees. The top 5 law schools all have excellent loan forgiveness and repayment for graduates who commit "x" amount of years working in the public sector. Which is great because most EL/ARL is Non-Profit or Municipal. Ex: http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/COAP.htm GOOD LUCK.

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Luis Gomez
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Luis Gomez » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:29 pm

This man knows his EL programs allright.

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reasonable_man
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby reasonable_man » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:47 pm

Oh boy.

aer
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby aer » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:51 pm

guimoman wrote:Here are some quick points to take into consideration.

1. Environmental Law (EL) and Animal Rights Law (ARL) is one of the fastest growing legal sectors in the market with projections over the next 5 years surpassing 25%.

2. There are not enough T25 law students with specializations in EL/ARL entering the market.

3. EL/ARL doesn't pay the big bucks, which decreases up-and-coming law student's inclination towards working in the sector.

I went through the same dilemma last year so let me give you some advice. I apologize in advance if I offend the forum, but when it comes to EL most of you are misinformed.

So last year I went through the cycle took the lsat and did poorly. I didn't really sweat it because I had already had my sights on 7 schools, with only 2 of them T14. I got accepted into Vermont Law, Lewis and Clark, waitlisted at Pace and UIUC. I discovered this forum a few months before the application deadline to law school and missed the chance to apply to better tier schools. After much reading on the site I became very depressed about my chances at securing a job after law school. With the law market as bad as it was/is I became convinced that law school out side of a T14 would be suicide. In short, I let the forum influence my decision. I decided not to attend VL or L&C and wait until 2011 to try for law school again.

Now here is what blows. For the past year I've been working with an Environmental Conservation group in NYC. As well as working with the City of NY as an Environmental Policy liaison. The job has allowed me to really pick the brains of top ranking Environmentalists in public office, the United Nations and non-profit legal groups (WWF, NRDC, etc.) Here is the gist of what all of them say.

*To make this easier I'm just going to use VL as an example, but in reality this applies to the top 3 env. law school programs. T25 in this case excludes HYS*

A T25 student almost always gets the job over someone from Tier 2 - 4 EXCEPT if they graduated from one of the top 3 environmental law schools. In these circumstances the review panel takes into heavy consideration the curriculum. If a VL graduate with a higher GPA then a graduate from say Duke/North Western/ UPenn was up for an interview and they both had the same extracurricular qualifications a VL graduate would have an edge over the other. "Graduating from VL with a curriculum revolving around EL lets us know that you are passionate about EL and that you have committed to fully integrating yourself into that field. Whereas a graduate from a T25 law school who has little to no experience in EL is ALMOST ALWAYS scrutinized with suspicion." Lead Hiring Manager and Director of the Review Board for... He went on to explain that those who graduate from high ranking law schools with no apparent interest in EL are usually not hired if a candidate from say VL or Pace with a comparable GPA is available. They feel that in too many instances the candidate from the high ranking school is a "drifter", someone trying to find any job to pay the bills until a better opportunity comes along. When it comes to EL/ARL, cases last decades and if the staff is going to be continuously changing it significantly lowers the chances of a victory. Remember that firms and agencies are looking for long term retention from their employees. This is more likely with a graduate from VL then one from T25 with no EL interests.
I'm not trying to say that a VL grad will always be hired over a T25 grad, but I am saying that the top 50% of VL grads get placed working for NRDC, EDF, Municipal and State Conservation Agencies, EPA, WWF. If you attend VL and place in the top 50% of your class the chances of being hired as an EL/ARL are better then the average placement of most T25.
A strong GPA from VL will get you a job in the EL/ARL sector straight after graduation. In fact, three of the people I met graduated from Pace Law and they were hired after having completed their externships. two of them work for EDF, and one of them works with the UN. I've ran into a few who now work as high level policy analysts drafting environmental legislation who graduated less then 7 years ago. One went to NYU, one went to Georgetown, and another one graduated from Lewis and Clark when it was rated #3 in EL. All three of them work together out of the same office. The others I know all graduated from T14 schools, BUT they based their curriculum around Environmental Law. VL, L&C, and Pace are great law schools if you are committed to EL/ARL.

With all that you should be able to make an informed decision. I highly recommend you apply to the top 6 Environmental Law Programs
Vermont Law - http://www.vermontlaw.edu/
Lewis and Clark - http://www.lclark.edu/law/centers/animal_law_studies/
Pace University - --LinkRemoved-- --LinkRemoved--
Georgetown - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/gelpi/
UC Berkeley - http://www.law.berkeley.edu/148.htm , http://www.law.berkeley.edu/clee.htm
UC Boulder - http://www.colorado.edu/law/centers/

And these T25 schools that also happen to rank in the Top 20 Environmental Law Programs

NYU - http://www.law.nyu.edu/centers/elc/index.htm
Columbia - http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/ ... ron_at_cls
Yale - http://envirocenter.research.yale.edu/
Harvard - --LinkRemoved--
Stanford - http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/centers/enrlp/
Boston College - http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/services/ ... s/els.html

Remember a graduate from a T25 and a concentration in EL/ARL will have priority over a VL/LC/PACE graduate in nearly every instance. But also remember that EL is one of the fastest growing legal professions, and Environmental Policy is also one of the fastest growing professions. As an Environmental Lawyer you can work both. There are not enough law students with EL/ARL specialization in the country to meet the demand. So when you apply and when you accept take all this into consideration. A full scholly to VL/LC/Pace is IMHO better then any T25 w/out scholly that lacks a Loan Forgiveness/Repayment program for public sector employees. The top 5 law schools all have excellent loan forgiveness and repayment for graduates who commit "x" amount of years working in the public sector. Which is great because most EL/ARL is Non-Profit or Municipal. Ex: http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/COAP.htm GOOD LUCK.


Duke is ranked 8th in the EL specialty rankings and offers a JD/MA in Environmental Science and Policy.

Lord Jim-ish
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Lord Jim-ish » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:56 pm

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Last edited by Lord Jim-ish on Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Renzo
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:07 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Oh boy.

Oh boy is right. Animal rights law?

guimoman
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby guimoman » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:05 pm

aer wrote:
Duke is ranked 8th in the EL specialty rankings and offers a JD/MA in Environmental Science and Policy.


Absolutely. My bad I meant Dame as in Notre Dame.

Lord Jim-ish wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Oh boy.


Can you elaborate on this?

"Oh boy" as in "Take a T14 school every time you shitty lemming."

or

"Oh boy" as in "Don't expect to specialize. You're going to be doing no-fault ID work, not saving a marsh."


This is the kind of attitude that convinced me to forgo law school, and it is also the kind of attitude that sets people up for failure. Thinking T14 or bust is great if you want to make big money, but if you really want to work with environmental law, animal rights law, and non-profits. A specialized school with a VAST... and I mean VAST network for employing graduates focused on EL is a better option. Those schools I mentioned fit the bill. But attending >T25 at Sticker over L&C full tuition is not a better long term investment in neither your career or financial future IF the school's LRAP is a piece of shit.

If the OP can get into HYS then hell yea go no matter the price. They have excellent LRAP's and EL programs. If the T14 he gets into isn't top 20 EL and they don't give him money or doesn't have an LRAP that is comparable to HYS then hell no. Debt is a bitch, and so is trying to convince someone in an interview that you want to work for them when you have nothing substantial to show for it. The hiring practice for EL and Non-Profits in general is very different from that of Corporate/Big Law. Don't assume a heart surgeon can perform brain surgery just because they are both surgeons.
Last edited by guimoman on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aer
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby aer » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:10 pm

guimoman wrote:
aer wrote:
Duke is ranked 8th in the EL specialty rankings and offers a JD/MA in Environmental Science and Policy.


Absolutely. My bad I meant Dame as in Notre Dame.



I have to troll for my school a bit. :wink:

guimoman
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby guimoman » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:13 pm

aer wrote:
guimoman wrote:
aer wrote:
Duke is ranked 8th in the EL specialty rankings and offers a JD/MA in Environmental Science and Policy.


Absolutely. My bad I meant Dame as in Notre Dame.



I have to troll for my school a bit. :wink:


Duke's great. I took a vacation to NC one time to visit a friend. I love how peaceful it is but at the same time all it takes is 20 minutes to find a great party with some hustle and bustle.

Lord Jim-ish
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Lord Jim-ish » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:32 pm

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Last edited by Lord Jim-ish on Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doritos
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Doritos » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:44 pm

Lord Jim-ish wrote:
guimoman wrote:Reasonable_man came to TLS from JDU so I always read his posts with a tinge of doom and gloom.




He is also a practicing attorney who got a decent gig from a TTT (I'm assuming his job wasn't handed to him). It may be doom and gloomish but I think his advice is always...wait for it...reasonable

Lord Jim-ish
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Lord Jim-ish » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:50 pm

.
Last edited by Lord Jim-ish on Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:38 am

Thanks a ton Guimoman! I'm really interested in various avenues of public interest and human rights, but environmental law is really very interesting too. To the OP, it's always good to hear about tree-hugging vegan hippies on TLS - so much talk of the almighty biglaw sometimes makes my spirit dip.
I have numbers way above Vermont, but it's amazing location and environmental law makes me think - hey, if they gave me a full ride....

I'm glad that you are totally committed to your fields. My rescue shelter dog, Moosha, thanks you in advance too!

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adora
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby adora » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:54 am

kwhitegocubs wrote:Thanks a ton Guimoman! I'm really interested in various avenues of public interest and human rights, but environmental law is really very interesting too. To the OP, it's always good to hear about tree-hugging vegan hippies on TLS - so much talk of the almighty biglaw sometimes makes my spirit dip.
I have numbers way above Vermont, but it's amazing location and environmental law makes me think - hey, if they gave me a full ride....

I'm glad that you are totally committed to your fields. My rescue shelter dog, Moosha, thanks you in advance too!



I second this! So nice to see fellow tree hugging vegan hippies!

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reasonable_man
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:43 am

Lord Jim-ish wrote:
Doritos wrote:
Lord Jim-ish wrote:
guimoman wrote:Reasonable_man came to TLS from JDU so I always read his posts with a tinge of doom and gloom.




He is also a practicing attorney who got a decent gig from a TTT (I'm assuming his job wasn't handed to him). It may be doom and gloomish but I think his advice is always...wait for it...reasonable


I agree. JDU just has a very distinctive, somewhat lyrical style to it for some reason (e.g. usage of "festering toilets"). I kind of read everything RM says with a tinge of that. It's not his fault, I think it carried over from skadden_farts/L4L.

But, yeah. He's a helluva resource for us TLSers.



1) I haven't signed onto (not posted)... not even SIGNED ONTO JDU in over a year.

2) My posts are not 'doom and gloom' oriented, they are realistic... I NEVER say that 'no one' should go to law school. I never say that its T14 or bust. I simply tell it like it is. Someone says... I'm going to go to suffolk and work at Crane Pool and Schmidt.. I say.. You're fucking retarded and you're ruining your life... Someone says, I have a full ride to St John's and I want to work in a small law firm and am happy with a 50k starting salary.. I say.. Awesome.. best of luck. In short, my posts are grounded in reality, not JDU or TLS spin.

3) Associating me with Skadden Farts is unfair to both of us, as we don't see eye to eye on the profession.

4) I have a better job than most of the future T1 grads from this site and I got it through busting my ass (not just academically), but by hustling and using an alternative game plan than what is typically employed by law school students. I don't make a fortune, but I earn a pretty good living, have reported decisions on cases of significance and regularly appear before the SDNY and EDNY as a 2A. I don't think this profession is complete garbage and I do not think that people can't be successful coming from a lower ranked school. I do, however, think the odds are heavily stacked against most people and that frankly, the work and stamina it takes to scratch out a good career coming from anything but a top school is a horrible process that most won't take on.

5) I think that threads like this are mostly silly because the idea of specializing is unrealistic for almost anyone, even people at top schools, especially ITE. You get hired by your first firm based on only a few factors and you take whatever position they have available to you. You don't, in most cases, get to walk in the door and say.. 'I'd like to only handle cases involving the saving of non-domestic pig-eels inhabiting sexy exotic nations.' Hence, why I said "oh boy."

6) I wish less threads would involve sub-debates on my background, my TTT-LS and, of course, the fact that I once (over a year ago), posted on JDU.

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Doritos
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby Doritos » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:56 am

I was defending you. I apologize

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reasonable_man
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Re: T14 worth it for environmental law?

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:15 am

Doritos wrote:I was defending you. I apologize


No harm at all. I'm not angry lol and I can tell that you were defending me and I thank you for that. I was simply lashing out at the fact that some users still hang onto the fact that I posted on JDU over a year ago lol..




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