Columbia vs. Northwestern vs. UCLA Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

Rayiner how much more would you pay for Columbia over Northwestern?

[rayiner]

Rayiner how much more would you pay for Columbia over Northwestern?

I'd have a hard time turning down full ride NU for a school that wasn't HYS.

Well I guess the question is $100k difference between Columbia and Northwestern. At that level I think it's entirely dependent on your risk tolerance and your estimation of post big-law salaries. According to the latest statistics, Columbia buys you a 10% safety net over Northwestern. If you're willing to pay $100k more for Columbia, you're betting you can make $100k / 0.1 = $1m post-tax (= $1.5-1.65m pre-tax) by getting big law than by not getting it.

Is that a reasonable bet? I believe you can grind it out for 5-6 years in big law as long as you can put in the hours, and get a stable job paying $150k or so afterward. So I think over a 35-year career, yeah, you might be able to make $1.5m pre-tax more in a big firm career trajectory than at a small firm career trajectory. So I might very well pay $100k more for Columbia, but that's probably the outer boundary, I'm not risk-averse, and I'm pretty optimistic re: post big firm career prospects.

My disagreement with bendurnotes4me is not so much the final number, but the methodology. From all of the data I have seen, Columbia doesn't give you materially different options than Northwestern. Top 1/3 at Columbia might get CSM and top 1/3 at Northwestern might get Kirkland, but top 1/4 at Northwestern has a good shot at STB or DPW and top 20% at Northwestern can get CSM too. Unless you get WLRK, the other V20 are pretty fungible (with exceptions). And guess what? The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

When you look at jobs that really are materially different, firms like Munger or Williams and Connolly where you have a solid shot at partner, Columbia doesn't seem to help at all. HYS does, but Columbia doesn't.

The only thing left is the extra safety net--the 10% or so better chance of landing a big firm job. That's what Columbia is worth over NU. It's not a trivial thing, and might be worth $100k to some, but that's what you need to look at, not preftige in the abstract or access to "elite" firms, because Columbia doesn't give you either of those.

[rickgrimes69]

Rayiner how much more would you pay for Columbia over Northwestern?

I'd have a hard time turning down full ride NU for a school that wasn't HYS.

[shumpshump]

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.

Why would he be at a PI job with no LRAP? Doesn't Columbia have a good LRAP?

[Kikero]

Live your dream. Good luck in 3 years when you're working a PI job with no LRAP and paying back $180K-250K in student loan debt.

Why would he be at a PI job with no LRAP? Doesn't Columbia have a good LRAP?

He said his spouse makes too much money to qualify. (or maybe just that with his spouse's income they wouldn't qualify together, kinda hard to tell with all the posts being deleted.)

[Samara]

The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

[BruceWayne]

When you look at jobs that really are materially different, firms like Munger or Williams and Connolly where you have a solid shot at partner, Columbia doesn't seem to help at all. HYS does, but Columbia doesn't.

options than Northwestern. Top 1/3 at Columbia might get CSM and top 1/3 at Northwestern might get Kirkland, but top 1/4 at Northwestern has a good shot at STB or DPW and top 20% at Northwestern can get CSM too. Unless you get WLRK, the other V20 are pretty fungible (with exceptions). And guess what? The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

The only "elite" firm CLS would be really better for than NU is WLRK. Places like Williams & Connolly, Munger Tolles, Susman, etc, seem to not distinguish between the non-HYS T14. You need top 5% at any of them to have a good shot.

I would say Harvard is worth $100k more than Northwestern, but Harvard is in a totally different league from Columbia when it comes to the tippy-top of the profession (boutiques with low-leverage, federal clerkships, etc).

LOL I've been saying all of this for years and whenever I did it was called "Anti NYU trolling". Regardless of what people who have this odd since of obssessive level allegiance to "CCN" say, for the most part unless your goals are NYC biglaw (and in the case of UChicago Chicago biglaw) those schools aren't significantly different from the rest of the non HYS top 14--especially NYU. And for the most selective jobs there doesn't seem to be a difference at all.

The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

Where's a link to that chart?

[Tiago Splitter]

The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

I'm only gung ho about needing a job.

LOL I've been saying all of this for years and whenever I did it was called "Anti NYU trolling". Regardless of what people who have this odd since of obssessive level allegiance to "CCN" say, for the most part unless your goals are NYC biglaw (and in the case of UChicago Chicago biglaw) those schools aren't significantly different from the rest of the non HYS top 14--especially NYU. And for the most selective jobs there doesn't seem to be a difference at all.

To be clear, Rayiner just said he might pay an extra 100K for Columbia over Northwestern.

[heeloftar]

The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

anyone have the link to this chart handy? rayiner has a lot of posts, and I'm not all that great at sifting through this site

[shumpshump]

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

Jobs, jobs, jobs. If I had legit job security, I'd totally move to California but being from the NY area, it's the only real place I have some certainity I'll be able to find a job I like.

[Kikero]

The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

anyone have the link to this chart handy? rayiner has a lot of posts, and I'm not all that great at sifting through this site

Here's one from 2010, not sure if there is a more recent one:

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2010

[Samara]

The Kirkland dude getting 2x Cravath bonus but paying Illinois taxes and Chicago cost of living has as much spending money in his pocket every month as the WLRK dude making 9x Cravath bonus but paying New York taxes and Manhattan cost of living. And probably bills fewer hours. And both style on the Cravath dude making 1x Cravath bonus.

LOL @ NYC. I enjoyed that chart you posted showing how everybody makes way more than NYC people when you adjust for taxes/COL. Even small markets, like Grand Rapids, with much smaller base rates kill NYC after adjustment. I'll never understand why people are gung-ho about NYC.

I'm only gung ho about needing a job.

Yeah, but I'm talking about people who target NYC. And blather on about how NYC firms do all the best deals or whatever. Who cares?

Where's a link to that chart?

Here you go: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=186930
In fairness, the chart is about partner pay, but I imagine there's a corollary with exit options, too.

[bjsesq]

Got to Columbia, OP. Go there because I fucking hate you, and I want to see you make a bad decision. Have fun living caviar dreams, brah.

[shumpshump]

Yeah, but I'm talking about people who target NYC. And blather on about how NYC firms do all the best deals or whatever. Who cares?

Who cares about doing the best deals? I'm assuming people who care about the quality of the deal they're working on. To each their own, right? No need to shit on people who have that opinion.

[Samara]

Yeah, but I'm talking about people who target NYC. And blather on about how NYC firms do all the best deals or whatever. Who cares?

Who cares about doing the best deals? I'm assuming people who care about the quality of the deal they're working on. To each their own, right? No need to shit on people who have that opinion.

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

[Ruxin1]

Yeah, but I'm talking about people who target NYC. And blather on about how NYC firms do all the best deals or whatever. Who cares?

Who cares about doing the best deals? I'm assuming people who care about the quality of the deal they're working on. To each their own, right? No need to shit on people who have that opinion.

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

Exactly, and combine that with NYC Biglaw attrition rate, in secondary markets, most people stay in much longer, with less hours.

[rayiner]

LOL I've been saying all of this for years and whenever I did it was called "Anti NYU trolling". Regardless of what people who have this odd since of obssessive level allegiance to "CCN" say, for the most part unless your goals are NYC biglaw (and in the case of UChicago Chicago biglaw) those schools aren't significantly different from the rest of the non HYS top 14--especially NYU. And for the most selective jobs there doesn't seem to be a difference at all.

To be clear, Rayiner just said he might pay an extra 100K for Columbia over Northwestern.

I don't disagree with anything in BruceWayne's comment. My willingness to pay more for Columbia is based entirely on the extra security for the bottom of the class that results from NYC having 1/3 of all big law SA openings. BruceWayne is of the opinion that bottom of the class is better off bidding on secondary markets where they have ties, so his calculus is different.

[rayiner]

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

To be fair, NYC big law was far more attractive when Cravath's bonus scale started at $35k + $10k special bonus for first years. Top Chicago firms matched salary, but besides Kirkland nobody paid NYC bonuses. These days the major Chicago firms match NYC market, because the bonuses are so small why not?

To an extent WLRK's reputation among associates is also partially built on when they used to pay 100% bonuses, rather than the 40% they're paying these days.

[shumpshump]

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

I totally agree if you have ties to a big city like Chicago (which I really like), LA, or SF, don't care about doing top-level financial work, or aren't risk averse. The thing is that some of those things don't apply to lots of people so NYC is the best choice.

By the way, I earn less than 160k pre-law school in NYC and have never had money issues in doing the things I want to do. It may be overstated how much money you need to be happy in the city.

[Ruxin1]

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

To be fair, NYC big law was far more attractive when Cravath's bonus scale started at $35k + $10k special bonus for first years.

Rayiner, for someone that would want to stay in biglaw or I guess regional biglaw (read: southern markets) for majority of their career, wouldn't you say that would be valued much higher than NYC exit options?

[rayiner]

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

To be fair, NYC big law was far more attractive when Cravath's bonus scale started at $35k + $10k special bonus for first years.

Rayiner, for someone that would want to stay in biglaw or I guess regional biglaw (read: southern markets) for majority of their career, wouldn't you say that would be valued much higher than NYC exit options?

I think if you want to make a legit run at partner, you should definitely opt out of NYC and start at a top regional firm. A lot of these firms hire like 6-8 associates each year and make a couple of partners each year. When you factor in people who leave for legit reasons, along with the lower hours expectations at these firms, that's a hell of a lot better than the 3-5% or so shot you have at a place like S&C or CSM.

[rayiner]

I totally agree if you have ties to a big city like Chicago (which I really like), LA, or SF, don't care about doing top-level financial work, or aren't risk averse. The thing is that some of those things don't apply to lots of people so NYC is the best choice.

By the way, I earn less than 160k pre-law school in NYC and have never had money issues in doing the things I want to do. It may be overstated how much money you need to be happy in the city.

NYC definitely does the best finance work, hands down. Finance work, on the lawyering side, is also thankless and boring. The exit options are relatively secure and lucrative though. If you're risk-averse, you probably prefer a decent shot at $300k in-house at a bank than a decent shot at $300k as a partner in a regional firm.

But it's not sensible to look at "how much money you need to be happy in the city." What's important is what you can buy with the money you make slaving away for 2200+ billable hours a year. Kirkland associates can live in glass-and-steel high-rises with lake views within walking distance of work and tons of great bars and restaurants. Cravath associates live a bit further out, in a bit crappier place, and pay a bit more for the privilege. The real groaner is the extra $800/month or so that the State of NY and the City of NY take out of your paycheck, not to mention that dudes who work Cravath hours at Kirkland make 3x Cravath bonuses.

But, you know, New York girls are skinnier in the alcoholic/chain-smoker sort of way New Yorkers are, so that's gotta be worth a couple of bucks.

[shumpshump]

NYC definitely does the best finance work, hands down. Finance work, on the lawyering side, is also thankless and boring. The exit options are relatively secure and lucrative though. If you're risk-averse, you probably prefer a decent shot at $300k in-house at a bank than a decent shot at $300k as a partner in a regional firm.

But it's not sensible to look at "how much money you need to be happy in the city." What's important is what you can buy with the money you make slaving away for 2200+ billable hours a year. Kirkland associates can live in glass-and-steel high-rises with lake views within walking distance of work and tons of great bars and restaurants. Cravath associates live a bit further out, in a bit crappier place, and pay a bit more for the privilege. The real groaner is the $800/month or so that the State of NY and the City of NY take out of your paycheck, not to mention that dudes who work Cravath hours at Kirkland make 3x Cravath bonuses.

All that is legit. My point is that if you're from the NY area or some area not surrounding a city you want to be in, in this economy it's understandable (and I think TCR) that you'd be risk averse and target NYC even considering all of the cost-of-living arguments, purely due to the volume of jobs available in NYC.

What I meant by "being happy" is that I don't need a "glass-and-steel high-rise". I just want a job that I'm happy at, enough job security both internal and external to my current job, and enough money to do the things I like. The amount of money you're "losing" in NYC doesn't prohibit you from having any of those things.

Now, if you wanna be a baller, it does make a difference but I wasn't looking at it from that viewpoint.

[rickgrimes69]

I totally agree if you have ties to a big city like Chicago (which I really like), LA, or SF, don't care about doing top-level financial work, or aren't risk averse. The thing is that some of those things don't apply to lots of people so NYC is the best choice.

By the way, I earn less than 160k pre-law school in NYC and have never had money issues in doing the things I want to do. It may be overstated how much money you need to be happy in the city.

NYC definitely does the best finance work, hands down. Finance work, on the lawyering side, is also thankless and boring. The exit options are relatively secure and lucrative though. If you're risk-averse, you probably prefer a decent shot at $300k in-house at a bank than a decent shot at $300k as a partner in a regional firm.

But it's not sensible to look at "how much money you need to be happy in the city." What's important is what you can buy with the money you make slaving away for 2200+ billable hours a year. Kirkland associates can live in glass-and-steel high-rises with lake views within walking distance of work and tons of great bars and restaurants. Cravath associates live a bit further out, in a bit crappier place, and pay a bit more for the privilege. The real groaner is the extra $800/month or so that the State of NY and the City of NY take out of your paycheck, not to mention that dudes who work Cravath hours at Kirkland make 3x Cravath bonuses.

But, you know, New York girls are skinnier in the alcoholic/chain-smoker sort of way New Yorkers are, so that's gotta be worth a couple of bucks.

Bolded is exactly why I'm trying to target secondary markets (specifically Minneapolis as I have ties). When you get right down to the numbers, NYC associates aren't making much more than anyone else, and they're working much harder for it.

[Bronck]

Yeah, but I'm talking about people who target NYC. And blather on about how NYC firms do all the best deals or whatever. Who cares?

Who cares about doing the best deals? I'm assuming people who care about the quality of the deal they're working on. To each their own, right? No need to shit on people who have that opinion.

To each his own, I guess. I just don't get NYC. It's so much more expensive than anywhere else in the country and doesn't really have anything that Chicago or other big cities don't have. Why would you essentially take a huge pay cut to work there?

Because... ghasp... many people think NY is one of the greatest cities. Other US cities don't really come close to approaching the street vibe of Manhattan. You can always live in the outer boroughs or Jersey City if you wanted to save money on rent. And... it's not like you can't live comfortably on a big law salary in Manhattan.