Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[fringles]

I think Dean Z's shtick is obnoxious and Michigan fanboys/apologists are even more so but you're right, Michigan is too easy of a target. I'll try to tone it down.

The T12/weird tier stuff was mocking the whole "the T14 floor is falling!" crowd who says dumb crap like "Georgetown better watch out, Vandy is breathing down its neck!" The T14 is the T14, its not going to change. And if it did it wouldn't really matter, those schools all are basically what we thought they were. I think my sarcasm was pretty obvious but I don't want any more Georgetown/Michigan apologists to have their butts hurt any more so there you go.

You say you agree with me but continue to imply that Michigan and Georgetown continue to have a employment problem relative to their peers, that they have something to apologize about and that they probably deserve to have their butts hurt or whatever you say. Georgetown may, but Michigan almost certainly doesn't. Definitely not this year.

I know it seems like I'm taking this too seriously - and, honestly, as a non-Michigan, non-Georgetown T14 student I'm not sure why I care. But this sort of T12 tier stuff gets thrown around, sarcastically or not, and people think it's actually true. I did as a 0L.

Take, for example, this 0L who has no idea what he's talking about.

I am betting that Vandy or UT (or both) will overtake some school in the T14, perhaps Georgetown or Michigan. Probably not in the next couple years, but within thee next couple decades.

This bullshit really needs to stop. This person is going to turn down Michigan to go to Vandy at equal cost or something. TLS is an awesome source of information, but it can go too far sometimes and it's not easy to tell where it does. We're studying to be attorneys, folks. Let's make sure the information is presented fairly and let's not get carried away with numbers analysis when we know full well that it's not a completely representative picture of the prospects coming out of these schools. Let's think about the 0Ls and lurkers here and try to be fair.

[rickgrimes69]

You're way too concerned about people making obvious jokes

Lol Michigan and Georgetown though. Seriously.

Michigan is 3 points behind Duke now? You really think there can't possibly be 3% more people at Michigan who self-select into public interest than there are at Duke? That's what you're saying.

I can only speak for one school personally, but I do know people from both of those schools and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the number wasn't much higher than 3 percentage points. Point is, we can't possibly know. But NYU/Michigan/Georgetown are more PI-focused, so we should take this into account. Beyond that, who knows? That only leaves us with a pretty broad picture of how schools are doing. That's all these numbers are good for.

Don't worry about BigZuck. From my short time on TLS, it's obvious he has an ax to grind with Michigan. Closet OSU undergrad maybe? Who knows.

Jilted former applicant IMO

I think Dean Z's shtick is obnoxious and Michigan fanboys/apologists are even more so but you're right, Michigan is too easy of a target. I'll try to tone it down.

Michigan is a deserving target. They've gone around perpetuating "T10" nonsense for years now despite lacking the employment figures to back it up. Their "self-selection into PI" line is tired and frankly a little hard to believe ITE for a school not named HYS or NYU, particularly given Michigan's stinginess with scholarships and notorious refusal to negotiate.

[jk148706]

Lol itt as Michigan apologists and former applicants who were dinged/WLd battle it out.

[fringles]

Michigan is a deserving target. They've gone around perpetuating "T10" nonsense for years now despite lacking the employment figures to back it up. Their "self-selection into PI" line is tired and frankly a little hard to believe ITE for a school not named HYS or NYU, particularly given Michigan's stinginess with scholarships and notorious refusal to negotiate.

You think Michigan doesn't have 3% more people self-selecting into PI than Duke does? That's what you're saying. It's three percentage points! Three. You think those PI-focused kids don't love Dean Z's we-love-everyone here schtick? You bet they do. These people tend to go to Michigan and not choose other schools. Additionally, I'd bet that they have pretty good PI career services too. My school doesn't, and we're always nudged to do firm work and bid NYC. It may be tired, but it shouldn't be hard to believe. I really don't see any other way to look at it.

I'll digress. I can't control the assumptions people operate under. If you guys want to keep on saying Penn>NYU, T12, etc. Go right ahead. Just a word of caution for 0Ls, some of TLS is garbage and this is a good example. Talk to actual students who you can trust before you make your decision.

[Serett]

Berkeley's too busy doing its own thing to release employment statistics. I know some people who have employment statistics for Yale, Harvard, and Stanford that still didn't get them for Boalt.

[Big Dog]

What are your thoughts on UCI?

if you can attend for free, it may be a decent deal, if the alternative is UCLA/USC at near sticker.

But you will have to gun to be one of Dean Chem's chosen calls for a clerkship, or Big Law.

Perhaps with the general public, but they place a lot of graduates all over the country. Plus, as the South/Texas continue to grow in population and importance, the opportunities for Vandy and UT grads will only increase (and so will their relative employment stats and reputations). I am betting that Vandy or UT (or both) will overtake some school in the T14, perhaps Georgetown or Michigan. Probably not in the next couple years, but within thee next couple decades.

UT is probably the only school that has the money to spend what it will take to achieve stardom. Vandy probably could raise the money if they so chose, but they just do everything bigger in Texas, I don't get that Vandy has the will to spend the cash that it would take (poaching faculty stars, massive investment in Career services to place more clerkships nationally, bigger scholarships to raise scores....)

[Rahviveh]

Lol @ people still defending that turd Dean Z.

Campos exposed her a couple years ago:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eople.html

[DrStudMuffin]

Lol @ people still defending that turd Dean Z.

Campos exposed her a couple years ago:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eople.html

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone was in this case.

[lecsa]

.

[jk148706]

Lol @ people still defending that turd Dean Z.

Campos exposed her a couple years ago:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eople.html

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone was in this case.

who was defending dean z??

[jk148706]

Vandy is in the South and has little to no name recognition outside of it.

Perhaps with the general public, but they place a lot of graduates all over the country. Plus, as the South/Texas continue to grow in population and importance, the opportunities for Vandy and UT grads will only increase (and so will their relative employment stats and reputations). I am betting that Vandy or UT (or both) will overtake some school in the T14, perhaps Georgetown or Michigan. Probably not in the next couple years, but within thee next couple decades.

[justonemoregame]

How can UCI put as many students in A-3 clerkships as USC, despite having less than half the class size and only operating for a few years? People keep saying Chemerinsky. What exactly does he do?

[lecsa]

.

[Jchance]

How can UCI put as many students in A-3 clerkships as USC, despite having less than half the class size and only operating for a few years? People keep saying Chemerinsky. What exactly does he do?

He sits in his office and makes calls to judges he know (or not know) to get his students interviews. Sometimes an interview is all it takes.
Pretty much all judges know him or know of him, he's the #3 most cited scholar in Constitutional Law.

[BVest]

Vandy is in the South and has little to no name recognition outside of it.

Perhaps with the general public, but they place a lot of graduates all over the country. Plus, as the South/Texas continue to grow in population and importance, the opportunities for Vandy and UT grads will only increase (and so will their relative employment stats and reputations). I am betting that Vandy or UT (or both) will overtake some school in the T14, perhaps Georgetown or Michigan. Probably not in the next couple years, but within thee next couple decades.

I'm not sure why you think this. There is practically no biglaw in the South, and never will be. You don't have the big banks, which are pretty much based in NYC, funneling you work and I don't see banks moving down South any time soon. A lot of biglaw work is tied in with big banks, which will stay in NYC. The trend is for NYC biglaw is continue to stay strong and get stronger. Regulatory work is going to expand, and only NYC offices can handle that work. California is dying and the South as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist as a legal market.

OMG, you're right! I bet there's not one single industry based in the south. Certainly not one that has 4 of the top 10 slots in the Fortune 500, made up of companies who pretty much mint their own money. And no other major corporations would HQ in the south; it's impossible that over a quarter of fortune 500 companies would locate in 12 southern states.

[El Principe]

I'm not sure why you think this. There is practically no biglaw in the South, and never will be. You don't have the big banks, which are pretty much based in NYC, funneling you work and I don't see banks moving down South any time soon. A lot of biglaw work is tied in with big banks, which will stay in NYC. The trend is for NYC biglaw is continue to stay strong and get stronger. Regulatory work is going to expand, and only NYC offices can handle that work. California is dying and the South as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist as a legal market.

A lot of NYC firms don't recruit at Vandy or UT, yet they recruit at every T14, even Georgetown. And to these firms, past Yale, Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, the rest of the T-14 is largely viewed the same.

I was worried you had forgotten Texas is actually a state, until I realized today is National 'Let's Pretend Texas Doesn't Exist' Day.

You got me good for a second!

[lecsa]

.

[cotiger]

I'm not sure why you think this. There is practically no biglaw in the South, and never will be. You don't have the big banks, which are pretty much based in NYC, funneling you work and I don't see banks moving down South any time soon. A lot of biglaw work is tied in with big banks, which will stay in NYC. The trend is for NYC biglaw is continue to stay strong and get stronger. Regulatory work is going to expand, and only NYC offices can handle that work. California is dying and the South as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist as a legal market.

A lot of NYC firms don't recruit at Vandy or UT, yet they recruit at every T14, even Georgetown. And to these firms, past Yale, Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, the rest of the T-14 is largely viewed the same.

I was worried you had forgotten Texas is actually a state, until I realized today is National 'Let's Pretend Texas Doesn't Exist' Day.

You got me good for a second!

To be fair, Texas isn't part of the South.

[rayiner]

Hm. Paul Campos suggested here the other day that these jobs can account for a lot of the 100+ placement, but the belief appears to be that it's more prominent the lower the rank of the school.

Just compare the NLJ 250 data, which is firms of 150+ and associate positions only, with the ABA data. At NU, the former shows 146 associates, and the latter 158. I know for a fact that there are multiple people in that class who got associate positions at non-NLJ 250 firms above 100 attorneys. Also, if you look at the the salary stats for the 11 people who got jobs in firms of 100-250, each one reported a salary, and the 25th percentile was $110k, which is market in Milwaukee, a tertiary market that does OCI at NU. So I don't think there's much room for staff attorneys to hide in the data.

Maybe its different lower down the rankings, but I don't think its worth factoring in for T14 schools. And even lower down, I'd be surprised. There are just a few firms that have large numbers of entry-level staff attorneys, like Orrick. Most of that work is outsourced to contract attorney shops. It just doesn't make much sense for most firms to hire people full time to do work that's easily outsourced, or at least to have more than a handful of such people (usually called discovery counsel).

[rad lulz]

f

[El Principe]

I'm not sure why you think this. There is practically no biglaw in the South, and never will be. You don't have the big banks, which are pretty much based in NYC, funneling you work and I don't see banks moving down South any time soon. A lot of biglaw work is tied in with big banks, which will stay in NYC. The trend is for NYC biglaw is continue to stay strong and get stronger. Regulatory work is going to expand, and only NYC offices can handle that work. California is dying and the South as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist as a legal market.

A lot of NYC firms don't recruit at Vandy or UT, yet they recruit at every T14, even Georgetown. And to these firms, past Yale, Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, the rest of the T-14 is largely viewed the same.

I was worried you had forgotten Texas is actually a state, until I realized today is National 'Let's Pretend Texas Doesn't Exist' Day.

You got me good for a second!

To be fair, Texas isn't part of the South.

And I was willing to assume that poster was aware of that distinction too, however, he included UT in his post, and seeing as the top destinations from UT are Texas, New York, and Cali, I have to assume he included Texas.

All that said, I totally agree with you.

[rayiner]

Michigan is a deserving target. They've gone around perpetuating "T10" nonsense for years now despite lacking the employment figures to back it up. Their "self-selection into PI" line is tired and frankly a little hard to believe ITE for a school not named HYS or NYU, particularly given Michigan's stinginess with scholarships and notorious refusal to negotiate.

You think Michigan doesn't have 3% more people self-selecting into PI than Duke does? That's what you're saying. It's three percentage points! Three. You think those PI-focused kids don't love Dean Z's we-love-everyone here schtick? You bet they do. These people tend to go to Michigan and not choose other schools. Additionally, I'd bet that they have pretty good PI career services too. My school doesn't, and we're always nudged to do firm work and bid NYC. It may be tired, but it shouldn't be hard to believe. I really don't see any other way to look at it.

I'll digress. I can't control the assumptions people operate under. If you guys want to keep on saying Penn>NYU, T12, etc. Go right ahead. Just a word of caution for 0Ls, some of TLS is garbage and this is a good example. Talk to actual students who you can trust before you make your decision.

The Michigan trolling is absurd. That said, the (new) TLS conventional wisdom isn't garbage. Several years ago, when I applied, we had tiers: HYS/CCN/MVPB/DCNG. That was roughly based on difficulty of admissions and USNWR, back before we had detailed ABA employment data. Five years ago when I applied, we had nothing like the insight into employment stats that we do now.

What this data tells us isn that the "T6" or "T10" split is totally fictional. It might be harder to get into Michigan or Virginia than it is to get into Cornell or Northwestern, or to get into NYU versus Penn, but the data shows there's no difference in employment stats. And that's valuable information. If you can get Cornell or Duke or Northwestern to give you more money than Michigan or Virginia, which they often will because the USNWR game, its a very smart decision to take the money and run. Its an arbitrage between the hierarchy as USNWR sees it and employers see it.

[cotiger]

I'm not sure why you think this. There is practically no biglaw in the South, and never will be. You don't have the big banks, which are pretty much based in NYC, funneling you work and I don't see banks moving down South any time soon. A lot of biglaw work is tied in with big banks, which will stay in NYC. The trend is for NYC biglaw is continue to stay strong and get stronger. Regulatory work is going to expand, and only NYC offices can handle that work. California is dying and the South as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist as a legal market.

A lot of NYC firms don't recruit at Vandy or UT, yet they recruit at every T14, even Georgetown. And to these firms, past Yale, Harvard, Columbia, and NYU, the rest of the T-14 is largely viewed the same.

I was worried you had forgotten Texas is actually a state, until I realized today is National 'Let's Pretend Texas Doesn't Exist' Day.

You got me good for a second!

To be fair, Texas isn't part of the South.

The south isn't a homogenous region and never was

If you made it out of the union in '61, you're a southern state

Lol please. That was just a five year aberration/embarrassment. Historically, geographically, culturally, and demographically Texas is different from the south. If you have to put it in a region, the southwest is the only one that makes sense.

If the civil war is such a defining factor (maybe you see it as doing that because I'm pretty sure you're actually a southerner?), I have friends from South Carolina and Georgia. They've said that in high school, when studying the civil war the south was usually referred to as "we." That would never happen in Texas. Also.. they said that it was referred to quite often (and completely seriously) as "The War of Northern Aggression" which... what the fucking fuck? Lol never in my life...

[El Principe]

As someone who has had the misfortune of having to live in the real South, I can gladly proclaim, that with the exception of East Texas (and let's be honest... no one cares about East Texas), that Texas shares next to nothing with the rest of the South.

[cotiger]

As someone who has had the misfortune of having to live in the real South, I can gladly proclaim, that with the exception of East Texas (and let's be honest... no one cares about East Texas), that Texas shares next to nothing with the rest of the South.