T14 for West Coast (LA) Forum

[BioEBear2010]

Boalt outplacing Chicago? I'd say no. I don't think there's going to be a discernible difference between Penn, NYU, Michigan, UVA, Duke, and Northwestern, either.

I know so. You're heavily underestimating home town advantage. Boalt runs Cali after HYS (it's basically tied with Columbia out there). You can really see Boalt's Cali strength with the very selective lit boutiques in Cali (Irell, Keker, Munger)Chicago is barely behind them though. It's sort of akin to how Columbia and Chicago really don't do much better than UVA in DC. Part of the reason Boalt can pull the "no grade" system even though they aren't HYS is because of how they are viewed in the Cali market. From what I've seen/heard from people, Cali firms don't even see Boalt as being that far below Stanford.

A lawyer in Los Angeles actually told me this...and that he personally sees Berkeley>Stanford.

I've heard the same thing. Cali firms go goo-goo over Boalties.

Not too sure how UCLA and USC compare to the T14, though.

[studylaw7]

1.Yale/Stanford/Harvard (Harvard's placement in Cali is at worst the same as Stanford's)
2.Columbia
2.Boalt
3.Chicago
4.NYU
4.Michigan
And then everyone else

These listed schools run Cali. I've looked into this a lot since it's a market I was heavily considering at one point.

[First off, California is a different world. That needs to be understood.]

I think this is accurate except for Michigan and the obvious absence of UCLA. If Michigan really does place so well in cali, I would think UCLA should place just as well. For those who underestimate Berkeley's presence in CA, you clearly know nothing about the California market. Where Boalt is in this particular poster's ranking is accurate and may even be in a tie with Columbia. Stanford may even be very slightly above both yale and harvard in Cali.

If "everyone else" refers to the rest of the T14, then I would agree that they probably all carry about the same weight in California.

[los blancos]

That isn't to say that they couldn't be on the West Coast. But most of them don't choose to go that far out. UVA and G-town are East Coast specialists.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the point of these threads to argue hypothetically which schools would give you the best shot at CA/West Coast assuming you wanted it?

That is a fair point, hence my saying that they could place out there. However, schools can only spread themselves to so many regions and still have a strong presence in all of them. And UVA/G-town/Cornell just don't have a strong presence on the West Coast. There are far more USC/UCLA hiring partners, especially in LA (which is what the original subject was about). I genuinely don't think those three schools do any better in LA than USC/UCLA.

Although I'd be likely to pick one of the three schools over UCLA/USC, probably not the case if I knew I wanted LA. There has been commentary that people at said schools with CA connections would have an even easier time placing... perhaps this could be true, but I'm not factoring that in. The typical G-town/UVA/Cornell student does not have strong CA connections. So for the average person who wants to end up in LA, USC/UCLA will have a much more prevalent network. And if you really do have CA connections strong enough to get you a job, I think this is a moot point. In such a case, go to a competitive school that makes you happy.

I'm very open to an alternative view on this. This is just what I've heard and it is my understanding of the LA market. Of course UVA/G-town/Cornell are all good schools and probably have a bigger national reach... but this is about LA in particular.

Yeah, good input.

This thread is of particular interest to me because I'm pretty sure that I want to end up in CA (and i want biglaw)... Ideally, San Diego, but I'd love LA or the Bay Area or Sacramento or whatever. And so Berkeley is my top choice and SLS is my #2. But I know that in all likelihood I'm not going to get into either of those schools. The only other schools that place as well in CA as they do are Y and H and those aren't happening either. And I have no ties to the region that I can draw on. And while I'm pretty darn sure now that I want to end up in CA (I've wanted to for at least the last 5-6 years), there's always the possibility that I'll change my mind. Which means I need a school with at least semi-national reach. The other complicating issue is placement - I would probably choose biglaw outside CA over CA without biglaw.

In short, all of this is why getting into Michigan would make my life so much easier, because I'm starting to think that's what comes next after HYS and Berk... You get a clusterfuck of CCN (of which I would think UChicago gets a slight edge), Mich, and maybe Penn - all of which I would think might be a bit better than UCLA/USC.

[los blancos]

I think this is accurate except for Michigan and the obvious absence of UCLA. If Michigan really does place so well in cali, I would think UCLA should place just as well. For those who underestimate Berkeley's presence in CA, you clearly know nothing about the California market. Where Boalt is in this particular poster's ranking is accurate and may even be in a tie with Columbia.

I would think that Berk would be even better than CLS in CA. How many West Coast firms go to CLS for OCI anyways? Surely they know that an overwhelming majority of their students probably intend on staying in NYC and the East Coast in general.

That's why I remarked in my previous post that I thought UChicago might do better on the West Coast than NYU and CLS - I would think that UChicago grads tend to branch out more. I also think Michigan does well for that same reason relative to its competition. UVA and Penn are probably more focused on the NE markets/DC whereas Mich grads seem to disperse more.


Disclaimer: this post is all speculation and I know absolutely nothing.

[FuturehoyaLawya]

Yale/Stanford
Harvard
Columbia/Chicago
Boalt
Penn/NYU/Michigan/UVA/Duke/Northwestern
UCLA/Cornell/GULC
USC

Even then, I'm hesitant about placing UCLA as an equal with Cornell/GULC. Might place worse than those two.

Why would UCLA place worse than Georgetown/Cornell in LA/CA area? Where do most UCLA grads go after graduation?? I doubt you'll find more Cornell/GULC grads in CA/LA than UCLA or even USC for that matter....just doubt it. T-6 schools....UCLA.....and the rest.....Penn/Michigan/UVA/Duke/Cornell/GULC won't give you that much of a leg up that is worth the overall tuition and fees if you are interested in CA/LA. I think people just base their decisions on these US rankings, ideally go to the best school you are admitted to if it makes economic and professional sense. However if you want clerkships or you are receiving significant money, then I can see choosing all those other schools over UCLA. I don't see how the benefits will outweigh the costs if you choose Cornell/GULC/Duke, especially when you want to return to Cali after you graduate. Moving IS expensive, especially when you are already in debt.

[RVP11]

Yale/Stanford
Harvard
Columbia/Chicago
Boalt
Penn/NYU/Michigan/UVA/Duke/Northwestern
UCLA/Cornell/GULC
USC

Even then, I'm hesitant about placing UCLA as an equal with Cornell/GULC. Might place worse than those two.

Why would UCLA place worse than Georgetown/Cornell in LA/CA area? Where do most UCLA grads go after graduation?? I doubt you'll find more Cornell/GULC grads in CA/LA than UCLA or even USC for that matter....just doubt it. T-6 schools....UCLA.....and the rest.....Penn/Michigan/UVA/Duke/Cornell/GULC won't give you that much of a leg up that is worth the overall tuition and fees if you are interested in CA/LA. I think people just base their decisions on these US rankings, ideally go to the best school you are admitted to if it makes economic and professional sense. However if you want clerkships or you are receiving significant money, then I can see choosing all those other schools over UCLA. I don't see how the benefits will outweigh the costs if you choose Cornell/GULC/Duke, especially when you want to return to Cali after you graduate. Moving IS expensive, especially when you are already in debt.

Crazy how many people misunderstand this.

I was talking about placement potential. Following your logic, because most Minnesota graduates go to Minneapolis firms after graduation, and because you'll find more Minnesota grads that grads of any other school at the top firms there, then Minnesota must surely be better than YHS for Minneapolis placement. But is it? No.

FWIW, I've changed my mind a bit. If I were trying to practice in LA and I had connections to SoCal, this would be my order of preference:

Yale/Stanford
Harvard (only hurt by large class size)
Columbia/Chicago
Boalt
Penn/NYU/Michigan/UVA/Duke/Northwestern
UCLA
USC/Cornell/GULC

[studylaw7]

A lawyer in Los Angeles actually told me this...and that he personally sees Berkeley>Stanford.

I've heard the same thing. Cali firms go goo-goo over Boalties.

Not too sure how UCLA and USC compare to the T14, though.

I really doubt that cali firms view berkeley>stanford in any significant number. This is just wishful thinking. Stanford reigns supreme in California. The only people who would place berkeley above stanford are people from berkeley.

[RVP11]

A lawyer in Los Angeles actually told me this...and that he personally sees Berkeley>Stanford.

I've heard the same thing. Cali firms go goo-goo over Boalties.

Not too sure how UCLA and USC compare to the T14, though.

I really doubt that cali firms view berkeley>stanford in any significant number. This is just wishful thinking. Stanford reigns supreme in California. The only people who would place berkeley above stanford are people from berkeley.

Yeah, I never said that. Watch your quotes.

[studylaw7]

A lawyer in Los Angeles actually told me this...and that he personally sees Berkeley>Stanford.

I've heard the same thing. Cali firms go goo-goo over Boalties.

Not too sure how UCLA and USC compare to the T14, though.

I really doubt that cali firms view berkeley>stanford in any significant number. This is just wishful thinking. Stanford reigns supreme in California. The only people who would place berkeley above stanford are people from berkeley.

Yeah, I never said that. Watch your quotes.

my bad. apologies.

[kurama20]

Yeah a couple of your quotes are off. Some of the stuff you quoted me for I never said as well.

[crackberry]

A lawyer in Los Angeles actually told me this...and that he personally sees Berkeley>Stanford.

I've heard the same thing. Cali firms go goo-goo over Boalties.

Yeah not sure about this. I love Boalt, don't get me wrong, but I find it hard to believe that Boalt > Stanford in California.

Also, kurama you're pretty incredible. You've transitioned from being a pretty serious NYU hater to a pretty serious NYU and Stanford hater. What school is next on your list?

[kurama20]

A lawyer in Los Angeles actually told me this...and that he personally sees Berkeley>Stanford.

I've heard the same thing. Cali firms go goo-goo over Boalties.

Yeah not sure about this. I love Boalt, don't get me wrong, but I find it hard to believe that Boalt > Stanford in California.

Also, kurama you're pretty incredible. You've transitioned from being a pretty serious NYU hater to a pretty serious NYU and Stanford hater. What school is next on your list?

lol at saying that "Cali firms don't view Boalt as being too far below Stanford" as Stanford "hating"! lol man you have got to get off this site and get some sort of social life/perspective! The whole thing seeing calling NYU a peer to Michigan , UVA, and Boalt for those not interested in NYC as NYU "hating" just reeks of US News worship and too much free time!

Hey I'm going to start anti Yale trolling. For those not interested in academia there isn't much difference between them and Harvard. I am now officially an "anti Yale" troll!

[BioEBear2010]

We're not saying that Boalt > Stanford, but rather that we have heard from some attorneys that they feel Boalt ~ Stanford. Personally, I believe that Stanford produces some of the best lawyers in the country.

[crackberry]

lol at saying that "Cali firms don't view Boalt as being too far below Stanford" as Stanford "hating"! lol man you have got to get off this site and get some sort of social life/perspective! The whole thing seeing calling NYU a peer to Michigan , UVA, and Boalt for those not interested in NYC as NYU "hating" just reeks of US News worship and too much free time!

Let me provide some evidence (sorry in advance for multiple posts):

HY are going to outdo everyone everywhere, but with the rest of the top 14 region and grades are going to be huge factors.

That one is particularly egregious. LOL at Stanford being a "regional" school.

[crackberry]

The H and Y grads do tend to have "lesser" academic qualifications and line DC firms in droves (even though Yale is much smaller than UVA).

[crackberry]

We're not saying that Boalt > Stanford, but rather that we have heard from some attorneys that they feel Boalt ~ Stanford. Personally, I believe that Stanford produces some of the best lawyers in the country.

Fair enough. I've also heard lawyers say Georgetown > Harvard. Sample size FTW.

[crackberry]

Hey I'm going to start anti Yale trolling. For those not interested in academia there isn't much difference between them and Harvard. I am know officially an "anti Yale" troll!

Haha even this post is anti-Stanford trolling!

[kurama20]

lol at saying that "Cali firms don't view Boalt as being too far below Stanford" as Stanford "hating"! lol man you have got to get off this site and get some sort of social life/perspective! The whole thing seeing calling NYU a peer to Michigan , UVA, and Boalt for those not interested in NYC as NYU "hating" just reeks of US News worship and too much free time!

Let me provide some evidence (sorry in advance for multiple posts):

HY are going to outdo everyone everywhere, but with the rest of the top 14 region and grades are going to be huge factors.

That's from another thread! The other reason why I said that is because...wait for it....it's true! Sorry but in certain regions SLS doesn't hold more prestige than every other schools like HY do, the south would be a big example of this (although you're going to come back with some lame come back that you heard on Bill Mahr about how the south doesn't count as region).

The H and Y grads do tend to have "lesser" academic qualifications and line DC firms in droves (even though Yale is much smaller than UVA).

That's from another thread too! Stanford wasn't in the discussion! Also sorry but H and Y do run DC, and it's not all "self selection". Those 2 schools have a history of running the DC arena for various reasons ( firms, DOJ, politics, domination of the SCOTUS bench, domination of the COA bench, etc.).

The really funny thing is that you some how think this qualifies as "trolling" basically if you don't hear "Stanford is king" you call it "trolling".

[kurama20]

We're not saying that Boalt > Stanford, but rather that we have heard from some attorneys that they feel Boalt ~ Stanford. Personally, I believe that Stanford produces some of the best lawyers in the country.

You're wasting your breath. He feels some sort of personal attachment to Stanford, like the school is related to him or something. Basically anything other than "Stanford is the strongest school in the nation" rubs him the wrong way. By the way I actually said that Cali firms don't view Boalt as being that far below SLS--that still qualified as anti Stanford trolling for him. That shows you just how much perspective he has lost on all of this.

[crackberry]

We're not saying that Boalt > Stanford, but rather that we have heard from some attorneys that they feel Boalt ~ Stanford. Personally, I believe that Stanford produces some of the best lawyers in the country.

You're wasting your breath. He feels some sort of personal attachment to Stanford, like the school is related to him or something. Basically anything other than "Stanford is the strongest school in the nation" rubs him the wrong way. By the way I actually said that Cali firms don't view Boalt as being that far below SLS--that still qualified as anti Stanford trolling for him. That shows you just how much perspective he has lost on all of this.

Well I am a Stanford grad likely going to SLS so of course I'm biased (just as you are toward UVA). Also those comments were from page 3 of this thread. Go check it.

For you it's always HY rather than HYS; so where is Stanford on your personal ranking? Is it on par with CLS? Above CLS but below HY? I'm seriously curious about this.

[kurama20]

We're not saying that Boalt > Stanford, but rather that we have heard from some attorneys that they feel Boalt ~ Stanford. Personally, I believe that Stanford produces some of the best lawyers in the country.

You're wasting your breath. He feels some sort of personal attachment to Stanford, like the school is related to him or something. Basically anything other than "Stanford is the strongest school in the nation" rubs him the wrong way. By the way I actually said that Cali firms don't view Boalt as being that far below SLS--that still qualified as anti Stanford trolling for him. That shows you just how much perspective he has lost on all of this.

Well I am a Stanford grad likely going to SLS so of course I'm biased (just as you are toward UVA). Also those comments were from page 3 of this thread. Go check it.

I think you're right. I haven't even checked this thread in ages. I was just about to say that you were a Stanford undergrad--the only time people view comments like that as "trolling" is if they went there for U grad. I didn't go to UVA for ugrad so I don't have a big attachment to the school--you'll never catch me saying off base comments about UVA just because I plan on going there. UVA isn't paying my bills or anything (yet ), the school has no personal affection for me and wold reject me in a heartbeat if I had, say a 150 LSAT for example. By the way, I'm still rolling over calling any of those comments "anti Stanford trolling". Anti Stanford trolling would be saying that it is no better than UVA.

[los blancos]

So, does anyone have any good ideas as to how we can get to the bottom of this, specifically:

Boalt vs Columbia & Chicago
UCLA/USC vs MVP/DN/CG

[crackberry]

I think you're right. I haven't even checked this thread in ages. I was just about to say that you were a Stanford undergrad--the only time people view comments like that as "trolling" is if they went there for U grad. I didn't go to UVA for ugrad so I don't have a big attachment to the school--you'll never catch me saying off base comments about UVA just because I plan on going there. UVA isn't paying my bills or anything (yet ), the school has no personal affection for me and wold reject me in a heartbeat if I had, say a 150 LSAT for example. By the way, I'm still rolling over calling any of those comments "anti Stanford trolling". Anti Stanford trolling would be saying that it is no better than UVA.

I'm pretty sure I would have been rejected from SLS with a 150 LSAT, despite going to Stanford UG.

[los blancos]

We're not saying that Boalt > Stanford, but rather that we have heard from some attorneys that they feel Boalt ~ Stanford. Personally, I believe that Stanford produces some of the best lawyers in the country.

You're wasting your breath. He feels some sort of personal attachment to Stanford, like the school is related to him or something. Basically anything other than "Stanford is the strongest school in the nation" rubs him the wrong way. By the way I actually said that Cali firms don't view Boalt as being that far below SLS--that still qualified as anti Stanford trolling for him. That shows you just how much perspective he has lost on all of this.

Well I am a Stanford grad likely going to SLS so of course I'm biased (just as you are toward UVA). Also those comments were from page 3 of this thread. Go check it.

For you it's always HY rather than HYS; so where is Stanford on your personal ranking? Is it on par with CLS? Above CLS but below HY? I'm seriously curious about this.

Crackberry, if it makes you feel better, I would take SLS over any school but Berk and maybe Yale. But I'm not even applying to Yale. So over any school but Berk. And that's only because I have a particular love for Berkeley.

[crackberry]

So, does anyone have any good ideas as to how we can get to the bottom of this, specifically:

Boalt vs Columbia & Chicago
UCLA/USC vs MVP/DN/CG

I really think for BigLaw, Boalt is going to be the fourth best school in California (behind HYS). UCLA and USC I'm not so sure about - for the Bay Area I think they'd be behind MVP; for LA, it might not be so cut and dry given those schools' (especially USC's) alumni networks in SoCal.