4.x/17mid/KJD/Canadian Forum

[CourtroomBrown]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

Interesting. Your story is exactly the kind of insight I'm looking for, as you're someone who has made the choice I'm trying to make. I'm definitely staying in USA. I'm looking at Y vs. CCN right now, still waiting on scholarship offers. I'm a business major and plan on sticking with corporate law for quite a while, at least until I decide it's time to move onto general counsel. With that in mind, is CCN still the clear better call? I mentioned this in another post, but we're discussing the difference between funding retirement by 30 and funding it by 32-35 in a worst case scenario, is that really enough to turn down Y?

I think I agree with you, in that I can't really go wrong here, but I'm trying to understand why everyones making such a big deal of what will likely be an afterthought 30 years from now especially considering how much individuals in Biglaw/General counsel make.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I think I agree with you, in that I can't really go wrong here, but I'm trying to understand why everyones making such a big deal of what will likely be an afterthought 30 years from now especially considering how much individuals in Biglaw/General counsel make.

Time value of money. Assuming a 30-year career, and a real return rate of 7%, $200k now is worth about $1.5M (in today's dollars) when you retire. It's a life-changing amount of money (enough to buy a nice house, or put three kids through private high school + college) for anyone but especially someone who hasn't even started working yet.

Lawyer compensation basically caps out in the low seven figures, and most people won't even get there, so no, you're not ever going to make so much money that the pain of this decision ever goes away. And that's not even accounting for the massive tail risks of getting laid off, realizing you hate Biglaw, having a health/family issue that forces you to dial back your career, etc. Being debt-free is so, so much more useful than the slim marginal difference between two different T6 law schools.

[NoLongerALurker]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

Interesting. Your story is exactly the kind of insight I'm looking for, as you're someone who has made the choice I'm trying to make. I'm definitely staying in USA. I'm looking at Y vs. CCN right now, still waiting on scholarship offers. I'm a business major and plan on sticking with corporate law for quite a while, at least until I decide it's time to move onto general counsel. With that in mind, is CCN still the clear better call? I mentioned this in another post, but we're discussing the difference between funding retirement by 30 and funding it by 32-35 in a worst case scenario, is that really enough to turn down Y?

I think I agree with you, in that I can't really go wrong here, but I'm trying to understand why everyones making such a big deal of what will likely be an afterthought 30 years from now especially considering how much individuals in Biglaw/General counsel make.

If I were you I’d personally certainly take CCN given this.

[CourtroomBrown]

I think I agree with you, in that I can't really go wrong here, but I'm trying to understand why everyones making such a big deal of what will likely be an afterthought 30 years from now especially considering how much individuals in Biglaw/General counsel make.

Time value of money. Assuming a 30-year career, and a real return rate of 7%, $200k now is worth about $1.5M (in today's dollars) when you retire. It's a life-changing amount of money (enough to buy a nice house, or put three kids through private high school + college) for anyone but especially someone who hasn't even started working yet.

Lawyer compensation basically caps out in the low seven figures, and most people won't even get there, so no, you're not ever going to make so much money that the pain of this decision ever goes away. And that's not even accounting for the massive tail risks of getting laid off, realizing you hate Biglaw, having a health/family issue that forces you to dial back your career, etc. Being debt-free is so, so much more useful than the slim marginal difference between two different T6 law schools.

Yes aware of the time value of money, but again we're not talking about investing 200k vs. not investing 200k, we're talking about investing 200k immediately or 2-5 years later. 200k after 25 years is 1.1M, after 28 years is 1.4M. Still a life changing amount of money but not a life changing difference.

Additionally, if its possible I may end up realizing I hate Biglaw, why go to a school so focused on getting me into Biglaw? Wouldn't I go somewhere that will open as many doors as possible?

Also thank you for participating in this discussion, I completely understand both sides and am simply just trying to figure out my best option. Your feedback has been very helpful and I'm quite appreciative of it.

[CourtroomBrown]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

Interesting. Your story is exactly the kind of insight I'm looking for, as you're someone who has made the choice I'm trying to make. I'm definitely staying in USA. I'm looking at Y vs. CCN right now, still waiting on scholarship offers. I'm a business major and plan on sticking with corporate law for quite a while, at least until I decide it's time to move onto general counsel. With that in mind, is CCN still the clear better call? I mentioned this in another post, but we're discussing the difference between funding retirement by 30 and funding it by 32-35 in a worst case scenario, is that really enough to turn down Y?

I think I agree with you, in that I can't really go wrong here, but I'm trying to understand why everyones making such a big deal of what will likely be an afterthought 30 years from now especially considering how much individuals in Biglaw/General counsel make.

If I were you I’d personally certainly take CCN given this.

Why is that? Just wondering the specifics behind you saying to choose CCN.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Yes aware of the time value of money, but again we're not talking about investing 200k vs. not investing 200k, we're talking about investing 200k immediately or 2-5 years later. 200k after 25 years is 1.1M, after 28 years is 1.4M. Still a life changing amount of money but not a life changing difference.

The money you spend on tuition is gone forever. By the time the HYS grad has finally clawed back up to $0 net worth, the Ruby grad is already $200-400k in the black depending on market conditions. That lead grows larger over time.

Additionally, if its possible I may end up realizing I hate Biglaw, why go to a school so focused on getting me into Biglaw? Wouldn't I go somewhere that will open as many doors as possible?

HYS do little marginal door-opening compared to CCN. If your plan is to start in biglaw either way, and then transition elsewhere, then there's basically no difference. I can't think of any employer who would prefer the SLS grad who spent 3 years at Cooley over the Chicago grad who spent 3 years at Kirkland or the NYU grad who spent 3 years at Debevoise. (Maybe on the west coast? But that's just special pleading for Stanford.)

If your burning passion was to be a law professor, then the relative value of Yale starts to shine more, but even then it's not clear how to assign a six-figure dollar value to that. As a non-U.S. citizen you're barred from the vast majority of Article III clerkships, which are the other area where Yale paces the rest.

Can you think of any doors that stay open if you pick Yale over a Hamilton?

[CourtroomBrown]

Yes aware of the time value of money, but again we're not talking about investing 200k vs. not investing 200k, we're talking about investing 200k immediately or 2-5 years later. 200k after 25 years is 1.1M, after 28 years is 1.4M. Still a life changing amount of money but not a life changing difference.

The money you spend on tuition is gone forever. By the time the HYS grad has finally clawed back up to $0 net worth, the Ruby grad is already $200-400k in the black depending on market conditions. That lead grows larger over time.

Additionally, if its possible I may end up realizing I hate Biglaw, why go to a school so focused on getting me into Biglaw? Wouldn't I go somewhere that will open as many doors as possible?

HYS do little marginal door-opening compared to CCN. If your plan is to start in biglaw either way, and then transition elsewhere, then there's basically no difference. I can't think of any employer who would prefer the SLS grad who spent 3 years at Cooley over the Chicago grad who spent 3 years at Kirkland or the NYU grad who spent 3 years at Debevoise. (Maybe on the west coast? But that's just special pleading for Stanford.)

If your burning passion was to be a law professor, then the relative value of Yale starts to shine more, but even then it's not clear how to assign a six-figure dollar value to that. As a non-U.S. citizen you're barred from the vast majority of Article III clerkships, which are the other area where Yale paces the rest.

Can you think of any doors that stay open if you pick Yale over a Hamilton?

This is very interesting, you make a lot of sense. The Ruby or Hamilton would be an amazing opportunity, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how the cycle turns out.

Thank you, once again.

[Iowahawk]

Besides the arguments from the time value of money above, it's also just especially useful to have a lot of disposable income when you're relatively young and will likely have kids. Child care is expensive even for lawyers.

I took the money and have never regretted it. I don't personally know anyone who regretted taking a huge T14 scholarship over HYS. I do know a lot of people who lost interest in biglaw but had to do it because they had debt. It's hard to know what you're actually interested in as a KJD 0L. And you're not actually losing out on anything besides lay prestige by going to Chicago or Columbia over Yale, especially if you do know what you want and it truly is transactional biglaw, which is not school-sensitive enough for CCN vs. HYS to make any difference.