4.x/17mid/KJD/Canadian Forum

[CourtroomBrown]

Black Canadian applying to American Law Schools. No legal work experience, but worked 40 hours during undergrad to put myself through school. Applied to the entire T14 + UCLA, accepted into Duke PT. Hoping for HYS, what are my odds? How will being international affect my chances?

[The Lsat Airbender]

If 4.0+ is the calculation LSAC gave for your GPA, then you might be (numerically) the single strongest candidate this cycle. Sky's the limit.

I would recommend taking the Chicago/Columbia full ride over HYS, especially as an international.

[CourtroomBrown]

4.0x is the one given to me by LSAC, also my LSAT is 174. LSData shows a number of applicants with higher stats than me and the LSAC volume summary also shows that there are a large number of 175-180 scorers, are my stats still that strong? Also, as an international student would I still get that so called “URM boost”? And what kind of effects would being a KJD have on my applications?

[NoLongerALurker]

You’re good. You’ll get full rides everywhere. Would still consider HLS or YLS if you want maximum portability back to Canada. At this point it’s “do I want free tuition at Columbia or do I want Harvard/Yale name”. Note as far as cost of living goes it’s gonna be a pain to get any loans at Columbia (even with tuition waived) as an international, whereas HY will give you loans.

[crazywafflez]

You'll get a boost. You are getting in everywhere; certainly worth applying everywhere. I would also take the full ride at CC, personally, over YSH. Unless you are solely after becoming a law professor (although, you aren't barred from it by going to CC, nor guaranteed it by going to Y). Totally your call though. Congrats, great scores.

[CourtroomBrown]

Apologies for the late responses, had a busy week, but thank you all for your kind and supportive words. I don't know if it's a little early to be weighing options, but considering your optimism I guess I'll have a very tough choice to make come January.

I'm interested in staying in the US after I graduate. I want to work corporate law for a while then eventually move into general counsel at a Fortune 500. Would this desired path make it a better option to take HYS or do schools like Chicago and Columbia have the same outcomes when it comes to general counsel positions?

[GFox345]

Apologies for the late responses, had a busy week, but thank you all for your kind and supportive words. I don't know if it's a little early to be weighing options, but considering your optimism I guess I'll have a very tough choice to make come January.

I'm interested in staying in the US after I graduate. I want to work corporate law for a while then eventually move into general counsel at a Fortune 500. Would this desired path make it a better option to take HYS or do schools like Chicago and Columbia have the same outcomes when it comes to general counsel positions?

HYS do not give much/any benefit over Chicago and Columbia (or really the T13 generally) for your stated goals. And in fact, Chicago and Columbia are likely better than HYS for corporate law. Plus, diverse candidates are in enormous demand at major law firms. Make sure you apply to the entire T13 and go to the cheapest place. The "Yale or Harvard name" is not worth 300k. And, if you want to engage with that question on honest terms, ask yourself whether any nebulous prestige bump is worth paying $3,000 monthly student loan payments for 25 years.

Everyone has to make their own decision, but if you turn down a fullride to a school like Chicago or Columbia to go to HYS taking on any substantial debt, you're a fool.

[CourtroomBrown]

Apologies for the late responses, had a busy week, but thank you all for your kind and supportive words. I don't know if it's a little early to be weighing options, but considering your optimism I guess I'll have a very tough choice to make come January.

I'm interested in staying in the US after I graduate. I want to work corporate law for a while then eventually move into general counsel at a Fortune 500. Would this desired path make it a better option to take HYS or do schools like Chicago and Columbia have the same outcomes when it comes to general counsel positions?

HYS do not give much/any benefit over Chicago and Columbia (or really the T13 generally) for your stated goals. And in fact, Chicago and Columbia are likely better than HYS for corporate law. Plus, diverse candidates are in enormous demand at major law firms. Make sure you apply to the entire T13 and go to the cheapest place. The "Yale or Harvard name" is not worth 300k. And, if you want to engage with that question on honest terms, ask yourself whether any nebulous prestige bump is worth paying $3,000 monthly student loan payments for 25 years.

Everyone has to make their own decision, but if you turn down a fullride to a school like Chicago or Columbia to go to HYS taking on any substantial debt, you're a fool.

That makes a lot of sense, thank you for the honesty. My family isn't that well off so hopefully I'll be getting at least some grants from HYS. 300k is definitely an exorbitant amount, but how much do you think the "Yale or Harvard name" would be worth?

[CourtroomBrown]

You'll get a boost. You are getting in everywhere; certainly worth applying everywhere. I would also take the full ride at CC, personally, over YSH. Unless you are solely after becoming a law professor (although, you aren't barred from it by going to CC, nor guaranteed it by going to Y). Totally your call though. Congrats, great scores.

Didn't know about using the 'reply' feature to notify you that I've responded. Thank you for the kind words!

[CourtroomBrown]

You’re good. You’ll get full rides everywhere. Would still consider HLS or YLS if you want maximum portability back to Canada. At this point it’s “do I want free tuition at Columbia or do I want Harvard/Yale name”. Note as far as cost of living goes it’s gonna be a pain to get any loans at Columbia (even with tuition waived) as an international, whereas HY will give you loans.

Sounds good, thank you!

[The Lsat Airbender]

300k is definitely an exorbitant amount, but how much do you think the "Yale or Harvard name" would be worth?

Probably less than a new Honda

[LBJ's Hair]

if you turn down the full ride, do yourself a favor and do Yale, not Harvard. the brand is better and you'll have a very chill law school experience, since the grades don't matter and your classes are small. Harvard is basically Columbia/NYU with better clerkship numbers and a shittier location

[CourtroomBrown]

300k is definitely an exorbitant amount, but how much do you think the "Yale or Harvard name" would be worth?

Probably less than a new Honda

Since I’m planning on working big law for quite a while, won’t it be pretty easy to pay off the debt? Why is taking on debt such a big concern for someone interested in corporate law?

[nixy]

Because not paying $300k is always better than paying $300k?

But the other thing is that lots of people think they're going to work in biglaw "for quite a while," and then absolutely loathe it and want to get out as soon as possible.

[The Lsat Airbender]

300k is definitely an exorbitant amount, but how much do you think the "Yale or Harvard name" would be worth?

Probably less than a new Honda

Since I’m planning on working big law for quite a while, won’t it be pretty easy to pay off the debt? Why is taking on debt such a big concern for someone interested in corporate law?

US$300,000 is a shit-ton of money, even if you're making 6 figures in biglaw.

Put $300k in the stock market at age 25-30 and you've just funded your entire retirement. Think about that.

[crazywafflez]

I'd highly recommend the free ride over any other option. If you must do it, do it for Yale. But honestly, I'd rather go to UVA or CCN for free than take 300k out for H or S. Even in biglaw 300k is a huge chunk of change, and paying back those loans will be brutal.

[CourtroomBrown]

I'd highly recommend the free ride over any other option. If you must do it, do it for Yale. But honestly, I'd rather go to UVA or CCN for free than take 300k out for H or S. Even in biglaw 300k is a huge chunk of change, and paying back those loans will be brutal.

That makes a lot of sense. I think the only thing making this a tough decision is just the name value of HYS. Saving as much as I would with a full ride is logically the better option though.

Would there be any way to find out how much I'd be able to get from HYS in grants as an international student?

[CourtroomBrown]

300k is definitely an exorbitant amount, but how much do you think the "Yale or Harvard name" would be worth?

Probably less than a new Honda

Since I’m planning on working big law for quite a while, won’t it be pretty easy to pay off the debt? Why is taking on debt such a big concern for someone interested in corporate law?

US$300,000 is a shit-ton of money, even if you're making 6 figures in biglaw.

Put $300k in the stock market at age 25-30 and you've just funded your entire retirement. Think about that.

Yeah that is pretty interesting. I think growing up hearing how great schools like HYS are is clouding my judgement. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what my offers are come spring. Thank you for all your help!

[CourtroomBrown]

Because not paying $300k is always better than paying $300k?

But the other thing is that lots of people think they're going to work in biglaw "for quite a while," and then absolutely loathe it and want to get out as soon as possible.

Yeah, when you put it that way, doesn't seem like much of a question at all, haha. I've heard a lot about people wanting to leave biglaw as soon as possible, whats the reason behind this?

[crazywafflez]

I'd highly recommend the free ride over any other option. If you must do it, do it for Yale. But honestly, I'd rather go to UVA or CCN for free than take 300k out for H or S. Even in biglaw 300k is a huge chunk of change, and paying back those loans will be brutal.

That makes a lot of sense. I think the only thing making this a tough decision is just the name value of HYS. Saving as much as I would with a full ride is logically the better option though.

Would there be any way to find out how much I'd be able to get from HYS in grants as an international student?

I understand prestige chasing- I almost fell for it myself, although, I wasn't looking at HYS. But seriously, CC have fantastic names and reputations worldwide. As do many other schools in the T14 if that is what you care about. Columbia is no slouch anywhere, it is an ivy league school world renown. (I did not go to Columbia and am from the South/Southwest and went to school in that region, I have no reason to pretend or promote it). In my neck of the woods, Duke is seen as just as prestigious as CC, however, it is not viewed that way internationally.

I'm not sure what amount of grants you'll get from HYS. I've heard it is tough to qualify for the grants, whereas for the UG they are easier to get cause they are looking at your parents info (I think they may do this for law as well if you are under 26? I'm really not sure).

Again, apply to HY and see how it goes, but also apply to all the T14 and see what your packages are. Cornell for free is a fantastic deal, Columbia, even more so.

[CourtroomBrown]

I'd highly recommend the free ride over any other option. If you must do it, do it for Yale. But honestly, I'd rather go to UVA or CCN for free than take 300k out for H or S. Even in biglaw 300k is a huge chunk of change, and paying back those loans will be brutal.

That makes a lot of sense. I think the only thing making this a tough decision is just the name value of HYS. Saving as much as I would with a full ride is logically the better option though.

Would there be any way to find out how much I'd be able to get from HYS in grants as an international student?

I understand prestige chasing- I almost fell for it myself, although, I wasn't looking at HYS. But seriously, CC have fantastic names and reputations worldwide. As do many other schools in the T14 if that is what you care about. Columbia is no slouch anywhere, it is an ivy league school world renown. (I did not go to Columbia and am from the South/Southwest and went to school in that region, I have no reason to pretend or promote it). In my neck of the woods, Duke is seen as just as prestigious as CC, however, it is not viewed that way internationally.

I'm not sure what amount of grants you'll get from HYS. I've heard it is tough to qualify for the grants, whereas for the UG they are easier to get cause they are looking at your parents info (I think they may do this for law as well if you are under 26? I'm really not sure).

Again, apply to HY and see how it goes, but also apply to all the T14 and see what your packages are. Cornell for free is a fantastic deal, Columbia, even more so.

Got it, thank you for the advice!

[NoLongerALurker]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

[Iowahawk]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

Terrible advice based on an N of like 4. And OP wants to do U.S. transactional biglaw anyway. Also, having no debt means freedom if you don't end up wanting biglaw. Academia, nonprofits, tiny firms in the middle of nowhere, whatever your heart desires. You don't need loan repayment (which CC have anyway) if you don't have loans. OP, you're probably going to get the Ruby at Chicago, which even covers your cost of living. Chicago is more or less interchangeable with Harvard even in elite litigation (e.g. it beats it in clerkships), let alone in corporate. You would be an absolute moron to turn down the Ruby with your goals. You're obviously brilliant, not a moron, so enjoy your time at Chicago. (Or at Columbia if you prefer NYC and the Hamilton, which is only slightly worse because it doesn't cover cost of living).

Also echoing that if you do turn down the Ruby/Hamilton, it had better be for Y, not H. H really is just a better name-rec, more impersonal, much more expensive CC. At least Y is pretty special.

[NoLongerALurker]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

Terrible advice based on an N of like 4. And OP wants to do U.S. transactional biglaw anyway. Also, having no debt means freedom if you don't end up wanting biglaw. Academia, nonprofits, tiny firms in the middle of nowhere, whatever your heart desires. You don't need loan repayment (which CC have anyway) if you don't have loans. OP, you're probably going to get the Ruby at Chicago, which even covers your cost of living. Chicago is more or less interchangeable with Harvard even in elite litigation (e.g. it beats it in clerkships), let alone in corporate. You would be an absolute moron to turn down the Ruby with your goals. You're obviously brilliant, not a moron, so enjoy your time at Chicago. (Or at Columbia if you prefer NYC and the Hamilton, which is only slightly worse because it doesn't cover cost of living).

Also echoing that if you do turn down the Ruby/Hamilton, it had better be for Y, not H. H really is just a better name-rec, more impersonal, much more expensive CC. At least Y is pretty special.

"Terrible advice." After I literally agreed with everything you said above from a financial perspective. I wasn't speaking just to OP here -- OP knows his goals and can put this together. But to the legions of future Googlers landing on this page: I stand by what I wrote above.

[CourtroomBrown]

FYI I’ve found the HYS name worth it despite turning down a full ride at CCN. HY is much more portable than CCN if you want to be guaranteed interviews in Canada if you want to make the move back as a junior. (Example: I know several Canadians who were median at HY and received interviews for clerkships for the Supreme Court of Canada, whereas someone graduating top quarter at Columbia did not).

Financially, if you’re sure you will stick it out in biglaw in the States and have a source of cost of living funding (since CCN won’t have loans for you even with the tuition waiver), I think CCN is the clear better call. Beyond that, it’s a lot murkier than people here are giving credit (including HY’s superior low income loan repayment programs, HY’s reach internationally, HY’s ability to extend cost of living loans to its international students, etc.).

I don’t think you can really go wrong. The point about funding your retirement by 30 is an incredibly strong one, and would sensibly sway most people I think. On balance I don’t regret taking HYS, but so think I’d have been happy either way ultimately.

Terrible advice based on an N of like 4. And OP wants to do U.S. transactional biglaw anyway. Also, having no debt means freedom if you don't end up wanting biglaw. Academia, nonprofits, tiny firms in the middle of nowhere, whatever your heart desires. You don't need loan repayment (which CC have anyway) if you don't have loans. OP, you're probably going to get the Ruby at Chicago, which even covers your cost of living. Chicago is more or less interchangeable with Harvard even in elite litigation (e.g. it beats it in clerkships), let alone in corporate. You would be an absolute moron to turn down the Ruby with your goals. You're obviously brilliant, not a moron, so enjoy your time at Chicago. (Or at Columbia if you prefer NYC and the Hamilton, which is only slightly worse because it doesn't cover cost of living).

Also echoing that if you do turn down the Ruby/Hamilton, it had better be for Y, not H. H really is just a better name-rec, more impersonal, much more expensive CC. At least Y is pretty special.

Thank you for your response. I'm leaning heavily towards doing it for Y right now, but I still haven't gotten scholarship offers from CC yet of course, so I'm waiting until I get that back to make a final decision. This is really tough LOL, but I just don't think it'd be moronic to choose Y if I did. I mean take the whole "funding retirement by 30" argument for example. If I have to pay off Y loans instead of investing right away then I'd be funding my retirement by 32-35, what's really the difference? The way I'm thinking about is that we're stressing over a few hundred thousand dollars in a career where it's likely I'll have made millions by the time I retire. If we're talking freedom, what gives more freedom than a Y degree? Isn't it #1 for a reason?

Also family income just over 100k, personal savings 15k, oldest of four kids all of whom are going to or already in college. I believe I will get at least some assistance, no?