PhD student interested in odds for elite law schools Forum

[historyfellow]

I am interested in applying to some t14 schools and wanted to hear what the folks here thought about my somewhat unique profile. I am about a year out from finishing a PhD in Social Science/Humanities @ Oxbridge and still have the law school itch. I come from a family of attorneys and planned to attend law school during undergrad, but I found a good project to pursue in grad school and was fortunate to win a string of scholarships that have fully funded my M.A. and PhD. I’m still interested in practicing law and would be particularly interested in going the clerkship route after law school. My ideal lifestyle would be holding an academic post and being able to practice law on the side.

As for my stats, I have a 3.61 from a solid state university in the northeast, graduated at the top of my class in my M.A. and have done well in my PhD program. I have strong softs and (short-lived but relevant) professional experience in government and politics prior to beginning grad school. I took a practice LSAT this summer and got 166 without having looked at test prep materials in years, so I am confident that I can get into the 170+ range on the LSAT.

For law school plans, I am interested in top schools but would likely be more interested in pursuing the Hamilton or Ruby instead of paying sticker price for HYS (if I can get my LSAT into the appropriate range). In my mind, the prestige from my Oxbridge degree would mean I don’t need to go to HYS to pursue further academic positions if I can go to CCN or another t14 university for free. There are two main questions I have for the TLS community:

1) For admissions to HYS or CCN, is a relatively low GPA (3.61) compensated for by my other graduate degrees/publications? Or would I need an especially high LSAT score (175+ ?) to compensate?
2) Given that I have a certain amount of academic prestige from my PhD, does the cost-benefit calculus of paying sticker price for HYS vs. Hamilton or other scholarships change? I would be keen to go for clerkships and/or academic positions and recognize the value of HYS for that, but I’m also a NYC native and would be most keen to attend Columbia or NYU with a scholarship.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to hearing your collective thoughts.

[cavalier1138]

Your LSAT will determine whether you're likely to get decent scholarship offers at CCN. But with a 3.6, you aren't getting a Hamilton/Ruby/Vanderbilt.

That said, if you're gunning for academia (legal academia, right?), then NYU has the Furman Scholars program, which includes a substantial scholarship. It may be a full ride for people who get into the program as 1Ls, but I don't recall the actual numbers.

[The Lsat Airbender]

1) 3.61 makes Yale and Stanford, especially, an uphill battle but with the right LSAT you should have chances everywhere thanks to your academic background.

Full-rides, on the other hand, are going to be hard to come by with a below-median GPA. (Law schools generally and CCN especially are using their scholarship money in part to buy premium numbers.)

2) You're right to assume that your PhD will make the HYS tickbox less essential for academia, but it's important to keep track of the Bayesian nature of that statement. It's still tough to land a tenure-track job at a decent law school (or tougher by an order of magnitude if you're trying to stay in NYC) with a PhD and an elite JD. If your ultimate goal is a tenure-track academic job then you're probably at the peak of your chances already.

I hope this doesn't sound pessimistic -- you seem well-positioned to pursue whichever path you choose -- but you do kind of need to choose whether you want to be a university professor or a lawyer. "Practice law on the side" is like "practice medicine on the side" or "play pro sports on the side" in that you'll be stunting your skills by not investing your full attention to the profession.

[nixy]

Yes, my sense is that profs who actually do practice law “on the side” established successful practice careers first and then became profs largely on the basis of that success. Admittedly a lot of law profs seem to sign on to/help produce amici briefs, but I don’t think that’s really practicing law.

I do think that with your academic background, Columbia or NYU would be more than sufficient for academia. You will probably be better positioned than most to produce legal scholarship, which is the coin of the academic realm (assuming your PhD is at all relevant - if your doctorate is on the ancient Hittites and you want to practice criminal law the PhD will look nice but not really be very helpful (think Dr Laura dispensing family/marriage advice when her doctorate is in physiology). I do know humanities/sci PhDs teaching at law schools and there often is a relevant overlap, but just the fact of the PhD won’t be that helpful unless you can effectively link your PhD research to law.) I get the emphasis on pedigree in this profession but an Oxbridge PhD will give you the academic bona fides you need.

[Cement]

This all seems to be somewhat moot until you get your actual numbers. I was in an almost identical position to you, and wrote a post about it a few weeks back, if you want to check it out. (Spoiler is I went with Y largely for academia reasons, and am very happy I did). Would be happy to answer questions

[Anonymous12345678]

Advice from someone who got a full ride to CCN and also has academic ambitions:

I agree with the comments that your GPA is likely too low for Y/S, unless you absolutely crush the LSAT (this was the advice I got, with a very similar GPA from an Ivy undergrad). These schools have their pick of PhDs exhausted from the academic job market and looking to get into law (at Yale 1/4 of the class has an advanced degree). So Y/S are unlikely to bend their standards for you (unless you are an URM). It's also very tough to win a full ride at CCN even with a PhD. At my school, and I imagine others in this group, a small but sizable portion of the class has an advanced degree (5-10%), many of which are doctorates - and not all PhDs to JDs get full rides.

Two things that will help: 1) You didn't just get a PhD, but clearly distinguished yourself in your field (published top articles, won grants, etc.); 2) You can articulate persuasively why you want to go to law school - and it shouldn't be so you can practice law "on the side". Showing a real connection between your current scholarship and future legal training will help your application.

Crushing the LSAT is great, but not necessary. Anecdata: I had a good score but not 175+ and won a full ride. I know of two PhDs my year who had 175-180s and did not get full rides. Only real differences are the academic accomplishments we achieved in our respective fields prior to going to law school. All to say - it's not just a numbers game (in contrast to typical law school applications). You'll be in the running if your LSAT is in range, but other aspects of your application will likely matter more.