Top Law Schools

Hi Guys,

For some reasons, I am thinking of going to law schools as an international. I have narrowed down potential ED choices to Penn and Chicago. Money is not an issue here. I would acknowledge this is an abrupt decision.

I did my undergraduate at a top 11-20 university known for its liberal arts education. I did a double major in economics and European history, with minors in Finance and American studies. I ended up with a 3.69 GPA. I screwed up in the first semester(3.18), and had since improved my gpa steadily, finishing with 3.8 for both semesters as a senior. I had planned a career in finance, and most of my internships were built around that aim, that is to say, they are not law-related. I passed CFA Level II, and had a 760 GMAT and 168+167 GRE(with one attempt) that I would use for the application. I don’t want to spend a lot of time preparing for the LSAT. I got two recommendations from two chaired professors that at least won’t hurt my application. What are my chances of getting into these two schools under ED? I am leaning toward Penn, since Chicago is known for its extremely intellectual and theoretical atmosphere that I probably don’t like. I have learned that Chicago seemed to have an unusually high admission boost for ED applicants compared with Penn, although I am not sure the whole ED boost thing applies to me since I am not contributing to their rankings with a high LSAT score and my GPA is lower than their medians. (I know that my GPA is unlikely to get me into HYS, so I would not even bother to apply)

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Thanks.

Was your undergrad international? Or are you applying as an international student? A 3.7 is good, especially with an upward trend. I'm not sure how admissions look at GRE/GMAT, but a 168v/167q roughly translates to a 174 according to online calculators, which is also good.

Here's what a 3.65-3.74/172-175 spread looks like on LSN.
https://myLSN.info/e224gf_1-13.jpg

I wouldn't apply ED if I were you, you have a decent shot at money from comparable schools to Penn and Chicago and could negotiate some decent scholarships.

kinge wrote:Was your undergrad international? Or are you applying as an international student? A 3.7 is good, especially with an upward trend. I'm not sure how admissions look at GRE/GMAT, but a 168v/167q roughly translates to a 174 according to online calculators, which is also good.

Here's what a 3.65-3.74/172-175 spread looks like on LSN.
https://myLSN.info/e224gf_1-13.jpg

I wouldn't apply ED if I were you, you have a decent shot at money from comparable schools to Penn and Chicago and could negotiate some decent scholarships.

Thanks a lot for the information! I am an international but did my undergraduate here in the States. Of course it would be desirable if it is possible to get some scholarships, but the most important concern is still to gain admission to these two schools in particular. I am not a fan of the culture at Columbia and most public flagships even though they are sure to be great schools.

JC3500 wrote:Of course it would be desirable if it is possible to get some scholarships, but the most important concern is still to gain admission to these two schools in particular. I am not a fan of the culture at Columbia and most public flagships even though they are sure to be great schools.

You need to stop treating this like undergrad admissions. The "culture" at all top law schools is basically the same. There is no reason to focus on Penn and Chicago to the exclusion of all other T13 schools, and doing so is likely to screw you out of a lot of scholarship negotiation leverage.

On that note, refusing to take the LSAT instead of the GRE will similarly limit your admissions options, and if you're sure you want to be a lawyer, I wouldn't recommend getting hyper-focused on the GRE.

cavalier1138 wrote:

JC3500 wrote:Of course it would be desirable if it is possible to get some scholarships, but the most important concern is still to gain admission to these two schools in particular. I am not a fan of the culture at Columbia and most public flagships even though they are sure to be great schools.

You need to stop treating this like undergrad admissions. The "culture" at all top law schools is basically the same. There is no reason to focus on Penn and Chicago to the exclusion of all other T13 schools, and doing so is likely to screw you out of a lot of scholarship negotiation leverage.

On that note, refusing to take the LSAT instead of the GRE will similarly limit your admissions options, and if you're sure you want to be a lawyer, I wouldn't recommend getting hyper-focused on the GRE.

I would add the recommendation that OP closely examine whether they actually want to be a lawyer. They themselves acknowledge that their newfound interest in law school was an "abrupt decision". Life-altering decisions of this magnitude should be made after careful reflection, not "abruptly". There is no rush to start law school this cycle. Law school will still be there next cycle, the cycle after that, etc.

I'm also confused by the reference to "public flagships". The "public flagships" with law schools generally have law schools that punch well below the undergraduate college's lay prestige, in terms of employment placement. IU, UIUC, Maryland, Michigan State, OSU, Penn State, Rutgers, Iowa, Nebraska, Wisconsin, even Minnesota - none of their law schools are comparable in prestige to their undergraduate counterparts.

You need to stop treating this like undergrad admissions. The "culture" at all top law schools is basically the same. There is no reason to focus on Penn and Chicago to the exclusion of all other T13 schools, and doing so is likely to screw you out of a lot of scholarship negotiation leverage.

On that note, refusing to take the LSAT instead of the GRE will similarly limit your admissions options, and if you're sure you want to be a lawyer, I wouldn't recommend getting hyper-focused on the GRE.[/quote]

Thanks a lot! Are you saying that law school admission is so homogenous and predictable that there is no "fit" concern in the process and all decision comes down to figures (scores and $$)? Even if the "culture" is the same, it is still different in terms of the difficulty of getting a good grade at these schools. For instance, I assume it will be easier to get to the top 30% at the lower T14 schools than at YSL, or T6 where the calibre of the student is higher statistically (significantly higher GPA and LSAT). The reason I am drawn to Penn and, to a lesser extent, Chicago is that they have extremely strong business schools.

I would add the recommendation that OP closely examine whether they actually want to be a lawyer. They themselves acknowledge that their newfound interest in law school was an "abrupt decision". Life-altering decisions of this magnitude should be made after careful reflection, not "abruptly". There is no rush to start law school this cycle. Law school will still be there next cycle, the cycle after that, etc.

Thank you for the advice! I am thinking of using this cycle as a way of testing where I could realistically land a spot. After all, admission without LSAT is still more or less a blackbox.The cost in the form of application fees is relatively minimal compared with the option it potentially gives. Even if I get in with ED, I could choose not to go to law school this cycle (or forever).

JC3500 wrote:I would add the recommendation that OP closely examine whether they actually want to be a lawyer. They themselves acknowledge that their newfound interest in law school was an "abrupt decision". Life-altering decisions of this magnitude should be made after careful reflection, not "abruptly". There is no rush to start law school this cycle. Law school will still be there next cycle, the cycle after that, etc.

Thank you for the advice! I am thinking of using this cycle as a way of testing where I could realistically land a spot. After all, admission without LSAT is still more or less a blackbox.The cost in the form of application fees is relatively minimal compared with the option it potentially gives. Even if I get in with ED, I could choose not to go to law school this cycle (or forever).

Applying to law schools is still hella fuckin expensive. It's $45 per application just to LSAC and then ~$90 per application to the schools - that adds up pretty quickly, especially with other expenses like CAS (like $180? I don't remember), transcript fees, etc. Unless you're sure you want to go to law school, I wouldn't apply at all. When you reapply, basically every school asks if you've been accepted into their program before and why you didn't attend.

Don't apply ED. Seems like you don't have a good reason to do so. There's no benefit from applying ED for these two schools and you don't even have a clear favorite.

JC3500 wrote: Are you saying that law school admission is so homogenous and predictable that there is no "fit" concern in the process and all decision comes down to figures (scores and $$)?

Yes. Well that and job placement/market.

JC3500 wrote: Even if the "culture" is the same, it is still different in terms of the difficulty of getting a good grade at these schools. For instance, I assume it will be easier to get to the top 30% at the lower T14 schools than at YSL, or T6 where the calibre of the student is higher statistically (significantly higher GPA and LSAT).

Law school grades, especially 1L grades (the only ones that really matter) are a crap shoot. You should always assume that you'll finish at median. Every law student has brilliant, accomplished classmates who can thrust and parry with professors on the most nuanced legal issues, but finish at/below median because they suck at typing quickly during an exam. Then there are those who you see on the editorial board of the law review and think "What!? How did he get onto LR?"

You should be focused on outcomes, not process. So yes, the median student at HLS is going to have better outcomes than median at Cornell. The question then becomes (to unending debate on TLS) how much that difference in outcomes is worth. This is an individualized, but still objective question to answer (meaning culture still does not matter).

JC3500 wrote: The reason I am drawn to Penn and, to a lesser extent, Chicago is that they have extremely strong business schools.

Then you should seriously consider business school. Your resume and interests scream MBA. It is a more transferable degree, is more affordable, and will get you back in the job market in two years instead of three.

Also, another poster already addressed this but ED is a scam for 90% of people. All it does is preclude you from getting scholarships that you would have received had you applied RD. If you do apply, then you should not ED, since you have a good shot of getting into several of T6 and below and maybe H.