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Since I'm a splitter, I'm trying to gauge the effect of soft factors and whether I have a shot at Harvard. MyLSN is search is already are attached. Thanks!

LSAT: 175+
GPA: 3.3x
College: public school.
Work experience
Other: average softs
LORs: Probably average.
Personal Statement: Very strong.

HYS (and some of the more grade-sensitive T13s like Chicago) are almost certainly not happening.

And if "T8" indicates that you didn't apply to schools ranked below 8 in this year's rankings, fix that. There's absolutely no reason to cut off those options, especially for a splitter.

cavalier1138 wrote:HYS (and some of the more grade-sensitive T13s like Chicago) are almost certainly not happening.

And if "T8" indicates that you didn't apply to schools ranked below 8 in this year's rankings, fix that. There's absolutely no reason to cut off those options, especially for a splitter.

I'd also encourage OP to be sure they actually want to practice law. Their entire resume screams b-school - the finance major, the asset management internship, the consulting club, the financial modeling club, the stock pitch competition, the business prof LOR, all leading up to the i-banking analyst gig, which - presumably - was leading up to b-school and a promotion to i-banking/MBB associate. Even in law school applications, OP seems to have simply substituted the "M8" business schools for the "T8" law schools. I don't mean to attack OP at all - they may very well have thought this through. I just want to double-check to make sure OP isn't making a hasty mistake that could have long-lasting implications for the rest of their career.

Hmm, never heard of M8. Never been interested in business school either. I've been wanting to go to law school since high school. I wanted to major in something new, hence finance. And T8 was an arbitrary cut-off since Michigan an above are my dream schools. Of course I'd be content with T9-14, too.

Aside, I was looking more of an assessment of my soft factors that might push me over the edge and wanted someone to judge whether they were good or not. I find it curious my chances are slim to none at Harvard when MyLsn says they're probably 20-30% if you cue in 3.1-3.4 range GPA and 178-180. Also consider, 4 people were waitlisted at Harvard. Also, not applying this cycle. I am applying at the crack of dawn on the next one in September with everything ready to go.

From personal experience, even M7-B-School caliber professional work experience (MBB consulting, name-brand investment bank, etc) doesn't gonna give you much of a bump. Had that, cycle went by-the-numbers.

Where it does help (sometimes *substantially*) is 1L/2L BigLaw interviews

Chinston Wurchill wrote:Hmm, never heard of M8. Never been interested in business school either. I've been wanting to go to law school since high school. I wanted to major in something new, hence finance. And T8 was an arbitrary cut-off since Michigan an above are my dream schools. Of course I'd be content with T9-14, too.

Aside, I was looking more of an assessment of my soft factors that might push me over the edge and wanted someone to judge whether they were good or not. I find it curious my chances are slim to none at Harvard when MyLsn says they're probably 20-30% if you cue in 3.1-3.4 range GPA and 178-180. Also consider, 4 people were waitlisted at Harvard. Also, not applying this cycle. I am applying at the crack of dawn on the next one in September with everything ready to go.

Right, but you don't have a 3.4/180. You have a 3.23/178, from a generic undergrad, in a subject that HYS admissions officers do not see as particularly rigorous.

To give you a sense of the difference 0.2 points in GPA can make: Someone applying to Harvard with a low 3.7/174 LSAT has an outside chance, but not a great one. Low 3.9/174 is almost an auto-admit---88% admissions chance on MyLSN, and the rest were waitlisted.

You should *apply* to Harvard, why not. You're an extreme splitter, your cycle will be a bit unpredictable.

But your numbers make you a very unlikely admit to Harvard in general, and your softs aren't ones that (in my view) would make HYS admissions officer take a "chance" on you. Investment bankers and/or management consultants are not particularly "sympathetic" admits, and insofar as Harvard wants them in its law school class, it has numerous Ivy Plus undergrads with above-median GPA/LSAT scores, who worked at the Goldman Sachses and McKinseys of the world, to draw upon. To put it very bluntly: You're like, the off-brand version of an applicant Harvard is already indifferent to.

Does that make sense? I'd apply to the T14, plus USC/UCLA/UT

As mentioned above, you're using too wide a GPA range on MyLSN, so that's why you're getting more optimistic results. For your numbers, you should probably limit the GPA range to 3.18-3.28.

I'm still interested in this bit:

Chinston Wurchill wrote:And T8 was an arbitrary cut-off since Michigan an above are my dream schools.

You classified this cutoff as arbitrary, but you're also calling this group your "dream schools." So which is it? Why isn't UVA as good an option as Michigan for you? Or Northwestern?

LBJ, except the numbers don’t really support your argument. When you do a 177-179 and 3.1-3.2 on MyLSN, Harvard becomes 50-50 (granted with a sample of 4, that’s why I included a larger range initially). Point is, numbers should say at at least a 20% chance at Harvard as is. But understood on your point about my business background. In how I weight it though, those sorts are only half of my total. I think I got a good life story about hardship, growing up with opioids and ultimately losing a parent right before college because of it. Plus part time volunteer experience with americorps I forgot to put on there, which was service related to helping people with opioid problems.

@cavalier, just preferences and location. I guess duke would be 9 for me.

Chinston Wurchill wrote:@cavalier, just preferences and location. I guess duke would be 9 for me.

And your preferences just happen to line up with the top 8 schools based on this year's rankings?

why so fixed on the T8 xD let’s just say I meant to say 14 then. I generally like the T8 - NYU + Duke, that’s why I said it. Also, I am just less curious about my results from T9 -T14

Your numbers split is about as wide as it could possibly be, so your application is not a "sure thing" at any T8 school. I won't harp on whether that distinction is arbitrary, but you seem to have identified a range of schools that don't have much data on super-wide splitters. I was a splitter back in the day, and I know it's going to depend greatly on what each particular school's admissions needs are, so I recommend applying to the whole T13 and, really, T19 regardless of where you want to land. That may not be the advice you're asking for, but...If you came here to have people who've seen the admissions process happen several times tell you that you're a lock at Harvard, you've come to the wrong place.

we had very similar numbers (your lsat is slightly better, my gpa was slightly better) and roughly equivalent WE and UG experience. blanket the T14, you'll end up somewhere.

dyemond wrote:we had very similar numbers (your lsat is slightly better, my gpa was slightly better) and roughly equivalent WE and UG experience. blanket the T14, you'll end up somewhere.

Where’d you end up if you don’t my my asking? And was your cycle about what you expected?

decimalsanddollars wrote:Your numbers split is about as wide as it could possibly be, so your application is not a "sure thing" at any T8 school. I won't harp on whether that distinction is arbitrary, but you seem to have identified a range of schools that don't have much data on super-wide splitters. I was a splitter back in the day, and I know it's going to depend greatly on what each particular school's admissions needs are, so I recommend applying to the whole T13 and, really, T19 regardless of where you want to land. That may not be the advice you're asking for, but...If you came here to have people who've seen the admissions process happen several times tell you that you're a lock at Harvard, you've come to the wrong place.

I get it. I just feel very uncomfortable not even knowing where I might end up given extreme splitter. Probably foolish of me to solicit opionions in attempt to hold me over for the next 1.5 years while I wait to find out where I’m going :/

Chinston Wurchill wrote:

decimalsanddollars wrote:Your numbers split is about as wide as it could possibly be, so your application is not a "sure thing" at any T8 school. I won't harp on whether that distinction is arbitrary, but you seem to have identified a range of schools that don't have much data on super-wide splitters. I was a splitter back in the day, and I know it's going to depend greatly on what each particular school's admissions needs are, so I recommend applying to the whole T13 and, really, T19 regardless of where you want to land. That may not be the advice you're asking for, but...If you came here to have people who've seen the admissions process happen several times tell you that you're a lock at Harvard, you've come to the wrong place.

I get it. I just feel very uncomfortable not even knowing where I might end up given extreme splitter. Probably foolish of me to solicit opionions in attempt to hold me over for the next 1.5 years while I wait to find out where I’m going :/

I feel for you, but we would all be guessing blind here. Your softs are pretty good, and any school that would actually consider you would look at the whole package (as they generally do for splitters), but nobody really knows how much of a difference softs will make---except that you generally need exceptional softs as well as ideal numbers for Y/S and that Northwestern generally cares more than other top schools about experience

Chinston Wurchill wrote:

decimalsanddollars wrote:Your numbers split is about as wide as it could possibly be, so your application is not a "sure thing" at any T8 school. I won't harp on whether that distinction is arbitrary, but you seem to have identified a range of schools that don't have much data on super-wide splitters. I was a splitter back in the day, and I know it's going to depend greatly on what each particular school's admissions needs are, so I recommend applying to the whole T13 and, really, T19 regardless of where you want to land. That may not be the advice you're asking for, but...If you came here to have people who've seen the admissions process happen several times tell you that you're a lock at Harvard, you've come to the wrong place.

I get it. I just feel very uncomfortable not even knowing where I might end up given extreme splitter. Probably foolish of me to solicit opionions in attempt to hold me over for the next 1.5 years while I wait to find out where I’m going :/

Splitters' cycles are unpredictable, unfortunately. If you blanket the T13, you can rest easy that you will get in somewhere (almost certainly multiple somewheres). But we can't tell you you're a lock for any particular school. You probably have lower chances at YSH due to your GPA (though everyone has low chances at Y/S anyway), as well as the few non-YSH T13s that are idiosyncratically GPA-selective (Berkeley and Cornell come to mind), but anyway you should just blanket the T13. There really is no reason to draw the line at 8 - there is no sharp line in prestige or placement power between Virginia and Michigan. And location can't explain it either, unless somehow you'd be fine with Palo Alto but refuse to live in Berkeley, or are willing to accept living in Virginia but not North Carolina, or are willing to live in Chicago but not downtown Chicago.

Chinston Wurchill wrote:Hmm, never heard of M8. Never been interested in business school either. I've been wanting to go to law school since high school. I wanted to major in something new, hence finance. And T8 was an arbitrary cut-off since Michigan an above are my dream schools. Of course I'd be content with T9-14, too.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe you were "never" interested in business. It's not just the finance major standing alone, but also the asset management internship, the consulting club, the financial modeling club, the stock pitch competition, the business prof LOR, and ultimately the i-banking analyst gig. It seems more likely that someone who was "never" interested in business - but was, rather, strongly interested in law all along - would have found some way of squeezing in at least one law-related internship during college, and would maybe have sought out a law/policy-related gig after college instead of going into i-banking.

Also, M8 = M7 + Tuck. I'm sure you've heard the term at some point during your years in business. Even if you never contemplated going to b-school, most of your classmates and colleagues would've had b-school on the brain.

Not sure where you’re going with this? Why would I even lie about that? There’s a difference too between never being interested in business and never being interested in business school, I never claimed the former. Never heard the term M8 until this forum either. Always wanted to be a lawyer, but I didn’t want to be stuck with a polysci or English major if it didn’t pan out. People can be more multifaceted and complex than simply having one interest. I knew a business education would be fruitful for job prospects and starting a family, but that’s never been what I was passionate about since there’s rarely a notion of “service” or “duty” in business. The most satisfaction I get walking home from my work in IB is that I helped capitalism become 0.0000001% more efficient today by providing valuation analysis and transactional transparency and liquidity. Doesn’t really ring your heart strings. I’ve always wanted to lead a life devoted to service, my spout in business, on a personal level, was never more than that. And that’s the truth.

All of the above sounds eminently reasonable. I really just wanted to convey that 1) it's perfectly fine and very common to have worked in business for a while before deciding to switch to law, and 2) it's important to not overstate your lack of interest in business (because that would simply appear implausible to an adcom who doesn't know you from Steve). Your resume, as I previously mentioned, screams b-school, with zero hint of your actual interest in law, and law school adcoms will see that. Again, nothing wrong with having worked in business - plenty of 0Ls have i-banking/MBB consulting experience under their belts - and nothing wrong with not having previous legal experience - that's the case for plenty of 0Ls - but you may want to use your PS as an opportunity to candidly convey your interest in law, because otherwise adcoms will likely look at your resume and think "does this 0L realize we're a law school, not a b-school?" That might matter less if you had a 3.9/179, because then you'd likely be auto-admitted at most schools on your numbers alone, but softs matter much more for splitters.

Best of luck with your cycle!

Chinston Wurchill wrote:LBJ, except the numbers don’t really support your argument. When you do a 177-179 and 3.1-3.2 on MyLSN, Harvard becomes 50-50 (granted with a sample of 4, that’s why I included a larger range initially). Point is, numbers should say at at least a 20% chance at Harvard as is. But understood on your point about my business background. In how I weight it though, those sorts are only half of my total. I think I got a good life story about hardship, growing up with opioids and ultimately losing a parent right before college because of it. Plus part time volunteer experience with americorps I forgot to put on there, which was service related to helping people with opioid problems.

@cavalier, just preferences and location. I guess duke would be 9 for me.

Let's look at the whole dataset because a sample size of 4 is like, totally irrelevant, as you point out: If you run through MyLSN to 2012 with those numbers (reasonable IMO--law school apps are up since Trump came in, especially HLS's), you're not over 50% at *any* T14 except Georgetown, I think? Run it back to 2003 (again, I think the older data might tell you something, given the spike in law school apps), you get a bigger sample and a similar story.

Not trying to burst your bubble, and this is all just prognostication, just think your attitude should be more like "I'm writing 'Why XYZ school' apps for every single T14," not "With my 178 I've got a shot at Harvard."

That makes sense, maybe I need to do a better job saying that explicitly in my PS. If you think that’s a weakness, I’m sure adcomms will too. Thanks for the heads up then if that was your point.

Chinston Wurchill wrote:why so fixed on the T8 xD let’s just say I meant to say 14 then. I generally like the T8 - NYU + Duke, that’s why I said it. Also, I am just less curious about my results from T9 -T14

I know it was mentioned again, but you seem to keep glossing over this point: Your individual "ranking" of T13 schools makes no sense, especially because you're focusing on the schools that are less splitter-friendly and less likely to give you money.

Chinston Wurchill wrote:

dyemond wrote:we had very similar numbers (your lsat is slightly better, my gpa was slightly better) and roughly equivalent WE and UG experience. blanket the T14, you'll end up somewhere.

Where’d you end up if you don’t my my asking? And was your cycle about what you expected?

CLS. I had no idea what to expect on my cycle tbh. I got dinged at hysc, waitlisted at nyu, accepted at MV, ding at penn, accept at NU, waitlist at duke, ding at gulc, ucla, usc, ut. got money from a bunch of the t25.

I really wasn't fully-plugged into the lawschool application machine so my LORs were probably mediocre, my personal statement wasn't inspiring although it was honest so maybe that helped. My resume also screamed b-school although my personal statement probably mitigated that. People here get wound up on softs, LORs and personal statements and my takeaway from the process was that they looked at my lsat, gpa and WE and made the decision based on that.

dyemond wrote:CLS. I had no idea what to expect on my cycle tbh. I got dinged at hysc, waitlisted at nyu, accepted at MV, ding at penn, accept at NU, waitlist at duke, ding at gulc, ucla, usc, ut. got money from a bunch of the t25.

I really wasn't fully-plugged into the lawschool application machine so my LORs were probably mediocre, my personal statement wasn't inspiring although it was honest so maybe that helped. My resume also screamed b-school although my personal statement probably mitigated that. People here get wound up on softs, LORs and personal statements and my takeaway from the process was that they looked at my lsat, gpa and WE and made the decision based on that.

Congrats on landing at CLS!

I would dispute the part about "people here getting wound up on softs", though. TLS has consistently advised that law school admissions is almost entirely numbers-driven. That said, for splitters, softs probably matter (significantly) more than for non-splitters, as - unlike people with a low GPA and a low LSAT, or folks with a high GPA and a high LSAT - splitters are less likely to be either "auto-dings" or "auto-admits".

LBJ's Hair wrote:

Chinston Wurchill wrote:LBJ, except the numbers don’t really support your argument. When you do a 177-179 and 3.1-3.2 on MyLSN, Harvard becomes 50-50 (granted with a sample of 4, that’s why I included a larger range initially). Point is, numbers should say at at least a 20% chance at Harvard as is. But understood on your point about my business background. In how I weight it though, those sorts are only half of my total. I think I got a good life story about hardship, growing up with opioids and ultimately losing a parent right before college because of it. Plus part time volunteer experience with americorps I forgot to put on there, which was service related to helping people with opioid problems.

@cavalier, just preferences and location. I guess duke would be 9 for me.

Let's look at the whole dataset because a sample size of 4 is like, totally irrelevant, as you point out: If you run through MyLSN to 2012 with those numbers (reasonable IMO--law school apps are up since Trump came in, especially HLS's), you're not over 50% at *any* T14 except Georgetown, I think? Run it back to 2003 (again, I think the older data might tell you something, given the spike in law school apps), you get a bigger sample and a similar story.

Not trying to burst your bubble, and this is all just prognostication, just think your attitude should be more like "I'm writing 'Why XYZ school' apps for every single T14," not "With my 178 I've got a shot at Harvard."

I just don’t agree with your assessment of the data. 2003-2011 was Great Recession, higher demand for law school, and Harvard was less splitter friendly (a simple look and you can see HLS didn’t take anyone below 3.75 from 2003 on until 2013 when they slowly start taking people with lower GPAs. After 2012 it’s 40% chance and even 2 people got waitlisted. Only 1 got rejected. Before then, it’s still 20% chance. No matter how you choose to look at it, you the data doesn’t support a conclusion that Harvard is “definitely out.” Unlikely? Sure. But with decent softs, a good life story, and applying early as can be next cycle, I just don’t see the zero chance argument.

Chinston Wurchill wrote:

LBJ's Hair wrote:

Chinston Wurchill wrote:LBJ, except the numbers don’t really support your argument. When you do a 177-179 and 3.1-3.2 on MyLSN, Harvard becomes 50-50 (granted with a sample of 4, that’s why I included a larger range initially). Point is, numbers should say at at least a 20% chance at Harvard as is. But understood on your point about my business background. In how I weight it though, those sorts are only half of my total. I think I got a good life story about hardship, growing up with opioids and ultimately losing a parent right before college because of it. Plus part time volunteer experience with americorps I forgot to put on there, which was service related to helping people with opioid problems.

@cavalier, just preferences and location. I guess duke would be 9 for me.

Let's look at the whole dataset because a sample size of 4 is like, totally irrelevant, as you point out: If you run through MyLSN to 2012 with those numbers (reasonable IMO--law school apps are up since Trump came in, especially HLS's), you're not over 50% at *any* T14 except Georgetown, I think? Run it back to 2003 (again, I think the older data might tell you something, given the spike in law school apps), you get a bigger sample and a similar story.

Not trying to burst your bubble, and this is all just prognostication, just think your attitude should be more like "I'm writing 'Why XYZ school' apps for every single T14," not "With my 178 I've got a shot at Harvard."

I just don’t agree with your assessment of the data. 2003-2011 was Great Recession, higher demand for law school, and Harvard was less splitter friendly (a simple look and you can see HLS didn’t take anyone below 3.75 from 2003 on until 2013 when they slowly start taking people with lower GPAs. After 2012 it’s 40% chance and even 2 people got waitlisted. Only 1 got rejected. Before then, it’s still 20% chance. No matter how you choose to look at it, you the data doesn’t support a conclusion that Harvard is “definitely out.” Unlikely? Sure. But with decent softs, a good life story, and applying early as can be next cycle, I just don’t see the zero chance argument.

I'm looking at 3.1-3.3, 177-179 in MyLSN. 2012-2020 for Harvard, we have data for 11 students. If you think that's a decent sample size, OK, but I don't.

Explained why I thought 2003+ data could be helpful in my prior post. Reread it, Google "Harvard law application spike," and feel free to compare the application numbers now to pre-Recession figures, come to your own conclusions RE its usefulness.

Didn't say OP has "zero chance," just that s/he would have an unpredictable cycle and should focus on getting into *a* T14, because Harvard is very unlikely.