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Hi all,

I got a 161 on the LSAT and have a 3.81 GPA. Double majored (English and Political Science), studied abroad, interned at 4 different places (including twice on Capitol Hill), am a prospective FGP, and have a year of work experience (at an economic policy nonprofit). I think that's about it. At the risk of sounding immodest, I will add that my essays are really well-written.

What do you think my chances are at Berkeley, NYU and Cornell? I was just accepted to Georgetown (my first choice) if that helps, but I wanted to know if another T14 acceptance is likely.

Thanks!

Your chances at the T13 are pretty bad.

Unless Gtown's given you $, I'd frankly recommend retaking and reapplying next cycle. You have a strong GPA that you are "wasting" on a 161 LSAT. Here are your T13 chances if you can get your LSAT up to 167-169:


And if you can hit 170-172, behold the sea change:

Agree with above but I believe Berkeley and Cornell are two of the least LSAT-stringent T13s, so if you get in to any those would probably be the ones. NYU is probably off the table with your current stats. Would definitely retake with your GPA as getting even a few more questions right would give you an excellent shot at Berkeley and Cornell as well as MVP and make NYU a genuine target school

I have to agree with everyone else. I know people (including myself) get annoyed when respondents say you need to retake but in your case, you absolutely should. Let’s say you just get a 164, then you have a decent shot for Cornell. If you go even higher, like 168-170, then you have a good shot at Berkeley and NYU and a very very good shot at Cornell.

Thanks for all your replies! I'm not going to take the LSAT again, but I understand why you all would suggest I do. I just don't feel it's necessary to dedicate anymore time (or money) to it given I've already gotten into my first choice. Perhaps I'm relying on being a URM too much, but I think that should help when it comes to merit award decisions, or another possible T14 acceptance. I'll keep everyone posted on what Berkeley says. (I decided not to apply to Cornell because even if I did get accepted I know I wouldn't enjoy living in such a small city for 3 years.)

denise137 wrote:Thanks for all your replies! I'm not going to take the LSAT again, but I understand why you all would suggest I do. I just don't feel it's necessary to dedicate anymore time (or money) to it given I've already gotten into my first choice. Perhaps I'm relying on being a URM too much, but I think that should help when it comes to merit award decisions, or another possible T14 acceptance. I'll keep everyone posted on what Berkeley says. (I decided not to apply to Cornell because even if I did get accepted I know I wouldn't enjoy living in such a small city for 3 years.)

Okay, you didn't mention being a URM in your earlier post. That changes things significantly. All of the data in my post above were for non-URMs. Here's the T13 data for URMs (note that I used broader LSAT and GPA ranges than before, due to relative scarcity of URM data on MyLSN):


It looks like you have a very good chance of getting into a few T13s, given the good odds at NYU, Duke, Berkeley, and Cornell, and even Columbia and Michigan, to a somewhat lesser extent. I'm not suggesting you'd get into all of those schools, but given the odds, I'd be surprised if you didn't get into at least one or two, assuming you have a decent PS and LORs (which you say you have).

***Note, the above assumes you are a URM for law school admissions purposes; in other words, that you are African American, Native American, Puerto Rican, or Mexican American. Your original post stated that you're a first-generation college/graduate student. FGP status alone will be a helpful "soft," but does not make you a URM for law school admissions purposes.

Oh wow, that's a lot more green. I should have mentioned earlier that I'm a Black woman. I definitely feel a little more hopeful about my chances at Berkley now. I'll keep you all posted.

Narrowing to AA only (instead of looking at all URMs), your odds look even better.


Best of luck and please keep us posted!

With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

L_William_W wrote:With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

The only reason I'd go to another school besides Georgetown (or Berkeley if I get in) would be if the merit aid was so drastically different I'd be crazy to take out six figure loans. That being said, I've applied to UConn (home state) and Howard as my lower ranked backups.

denise137 wrote:

L_William_W wrote:With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

The only reason I'd go to another school besides Georgetown (or Berkeley if I get in) would be if the merit aid was so drastically different I'd be crazy to take out six figure loans. That being said, I've applied to UConn (home state) and Howard as my lower ranked backups.

Pretty sure that was a (bad) joke. Obviously you should not attend CUNY Law given your numbers.

I wasn't joking. CUNY isn't as prestigious as the Ivies, but if you maintain good grades then you're practically guaranteed a job as a public interest attorney. Those stats are above the CUNY averages and she wouldn't pay a penny.

L_William_W wrote:I wasn't joking. CUNY isn't as prestigious as the Ivies, but if you maintain good grades then you're practically guaranteed a job as a public interest attorney. Those stats are above the CUNY averages and she wouldn't pay a penny.

This advice is so bad I frankly suspect you may be a troll. Please stop.

L_William_W wrote:I wasn't joking. CUNY isn't as prestigious as the Ivies, but if you maintain good grades then you're practically guaranteed a job as a public interest attorney. Those stats are above the CUNY averages and she wouldn't pay a penny.

Where'd you hear CUNY students are virtually guaranteed a job? Good grades at a t-14 do not even guarantee you a job - there is a great deal of luck and intrinsic factors involved (how you interview, personality, physical appearance). At CUNY, grades are a necessary condition to getting any legal job, not a sufficient one. The reason CUNY places many students in public interest jobs is that those students attending CUNY tend to be interested in public service, and the school expends effort to get PS interviewers on campus. It isn't because it has an excellent reputation.

denise137 wrote:

L_William_W wrote:With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

The only reason I'd go to another school besides Georgetown (or Berkeley if I get in) would be if the merit aid was so drastically different I'd be crazy to take out six figure loans. That being said, I've applied to UConn (home state) and Howard as my lower ranked backups.

I know you started another thread, but you've had some good (and some not so good) advice here too. You should not be considering CUNY.

You should be retaking. You are, quite literally, leaving a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the table once you consider interest on your loans.

Your GPA is strong and you need a good but not exceptional LSAT score to open up large scholarship offers from the best schools in the nation. Obviously it's disappointing if you've prepared yourself for entering school next fall, but waiting a year is the smart move. Find any position that would let you make rent and study and get stuck in to the LSAT. Ask GT for a deferral to 2020.

Remember, it's four years until graduation if you start next year. Who knows what the economy will look like then. Going to the best school for the lowest cost maximizes your options.

albanach wrote:

denise137 wrote:

L_William_W wrote:With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

The only reason I'd go to another school besides Georgetown (or Berkeley if I get in) would be if the merit aid was so drastically different I'd be crazy to take out six figure loans. That being said, I've applied to UConn (home state) and Howard as my lower ranked backups.

I know you started another thread, but you've had some good (and some not so good) advice here too. You should not be considering CUNY.

You should be retaking. You are, quite literally, leaving a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the table once you consider interest on your loans.

Your GPA is strong and you need a good but not exceptional LSAT score to open up large scholarship offers from the best schools in the nation. Obviously it's disappointing if you've prepared yourself for entering school next fall, but waiting a year is the smart move. Find any position that would let you make rent and study and get stuck in to the LSAT. Ask GT for a deferral to 2020.

Remember, it's four years until graduation if you start next year. Who knows what the economy will look like then. Going to the best school for the lowest cost maximizes your options.

If I retake and don't get a higher score I will have wasted a year (on top of this year I've already taken off) ~and~ missed out on the higher salary whatever law degree I get would ensure. I'm not retaking. Plus, I'm not confident I will score significantly higher than (if not the same as) before, making it not worth my time or money at this point.

QContinuum wrote:

L_William_W wrote:I wasn't joking. CUNY isn't as prestigious as the Ivies, but if you maintain good grades then you're practically guaranteed a job as a public interest attorney. Those stats are above the CUNY averages and she wouldn't pay a penny.

This advice is so bad I frankly suspect you may be a troll. Please stop.

I WENT to CUNY. As I've said, CUNY students don't work at white shoe firms after they graduate. However, they work in public interest sectors. There are a lot of connections and many judges directly recruit from CUNY. One of my friends from CUNY became a state senator.

If the OP applies to CUNY, they'll practically throw money at her.

denise137 wrote:

albanach wrote:

denise137 wrote:

L_William_W wrote:With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

The only reason I'd go to another school besides Georgetown (or Berkeley if I get in) would be if the merit aid was so drastically different I'd be crazy to take out six figure loans. That being said, I've applied to UConn (home state) and Howard as my lower ranked backups.

I know you started another thread, but you've had some good (and some not so good) advice here too. You should not be considering CUNY.

You should be retaking. You are, quite literally, leaving a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the table once you consider interest on your loans.

Your GPA is strong and you need a good but not exceptional LSAT score to open up large scholarship offers from the best schools in the nation. Obviously it's disappointing if you've prepared yourself for entering school next fall, but waiting a year is the smart move. Find any position that would let you make rent and study and get stuck in to the LSAT. Ask GT for a deferral to 2020.

Remember, it's four years until graduation if you start next year. Who knows what the economy will look like then. Going to the best school for the lowest cost maximizes your options.

If I retake and don't get a higher score I will have wasted a year (on top of this year I've already taken off) ~and~ missed out on the higher salary whatever law degree I get would ensure. I'm not retaking. Plus, I'm not confident I will score significantly higher than (if not the same as) before, making it not worth my time or money at this point.

Do you have a shredder? Go throw your money into it.

denise137 wrote:

albanach wrote:

denise137 wrote:

L_William_W wrote:With those stats, the OP could practically walk into CUNY Law School in NYC and get a full ride

The only reason I'd go to another school besides Georgetown (or Berkeley if I get in) would be if the merit aid was so drastically different I'd be crazy to take out six figure loans. That being said, I've applied to UConn (home state) and Howard as my lower ranked backups.

I know you started another thread, but you've had some good (and some not so good) advice here too. You should not be considering CUNY.

You should be retaking. You are, quite literally, leaving a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the table once you consider interest on your loans.

Your GPA is strong and you need a good but not exceptional LSAT score to open up large scholarship offers from the best schools in the nation. Obviously it's disappointing if you've prepared yourself for entering school next fall, but waiting a year is the smart move. Find any position that would let you make rent and study and get stuck in to the LSAT. Ask GT for a deferral to 2020.

Remember, it's four years until graduation if you start next year. Who knows what the economy will look like then. Going to the best school for the lowest cost maximizes your options.

If I retake and don't get a higher score I will have wasted a year (on top of this year I've already taken off) ~and~ missed out on the higher salary whatever law degree I get would ensure. I'm not retaking. Plus, I'm not confident I will score significantly higher than (if not the same as) before, making it not worth my time or money at this point.

The test is learnable. If you're not confident that, with a year of study, you can't improve your LSAT score by five points, you should be concerned about your ability to stay at our above median at GT. The LSAT is the single best predictor of first year law school grades.

You can't predict the economy at graduation. In the class of 2011, 20 prevent of Georgetown graduates were employed part time. 77 were employed on School funded fellowships (likely earning under $35k). 58 of those privately employed at law firms were in firms of under 100 lawyers, i.e. not in biglaw.

35 were unemployed and seekilng work months after graduating.

It's foolish to think about the return on investment as being about missing a year of a salary as a lawyer. You've no idea what that's gone to be. Nonetheless the best way to maximize your career earnings is a combination of highly ranked school and low tuition.

Of course you can ignore advice from those who have been there before you, but in my opinion it's an expensive mistake that you're on the path to make.

Checking in for anyone that wanted an update. In at Berkeley, still waiting to hear from Cornell, not applying to NYU (planned to write optional essays during the holidays until I heard from Berkeley, don't really see the point now). Applied to five other T20s (in at Duke), so still waiting about those. Merit awards from UConn ($$$), GWU ($), and Howard ($$$) so far.

Congrats on the acceptances!

denise137 wrote:...not applying to NYU (planned to write optional essays during the holidays until I heard from Berkeley, don't really see the point now).

Please apply to NYU. You might get in. And if those "optional essays" were for scholarships like RTK (you mentioned PI in another thread), then you should 100% apply. If you get in, your eligibility for those scholarships is determined based on your specific credentials in those areas, not on your numbers. If you want high-level public interest work in DC, NYU is one of your best bets.

cavalier1138 wrote:Congrats on the acceptances!

denise137 wrote:...not applying to NYU (planned to write optional essays during the holidays until I heard from Berkeley, don't really see the point now).

Please apply to NYU. You might get in. And if those "optional essays" were for scholarships like RTK (you mentioned PI in another thread), then you should 100% apply. If you get in, your eligibility for those scholarships is determined based on your specific credentials in those areas, not on your numbers. If you want high-level public interest work in DC, NYU is one of your best bets.

Thanks! And yes, RTK and AnBryce. I'll still try and get those done in time then

Hi all,

I wasn’t sure if this merited a new thread, especially since all my info is in this one already, but I have a question about negotiating scholarships. I'm a finalist for a full-ride at a T10, and if I end up being offered the scholarship I have to accept within about a week. I definitely will attend if I win the award, but since I won't know one way or the other until late March, which is close to the deadlines for the other T14 scholarships I received, I'm pretty sure I need to negotiate with the other schools before then. Does it make sense to mention to the other schools when I negotiate that I'm a finalist, or will they not care because I haven't been offered the scholarship yet? Also, maybe I'm just being paranoid, but will they go back to the school I'm a finalist at and say that I'm trying to use a full-ride I haven't even received yet to negotiate, therefore showing I'm not really interested in attending (although I actually am)?

I have to agree with everyone else.