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I had some disappointing news today... I underperformed my PT average by 6 points. I scored a 166, and as the title says my GPA is only a 3.47. I'm looking at t30 schools for the most part. Do I stand a chance at Vanderbilt or Duke? I really don't want to retake as I work 60-70 hours per week and studying on top of that can be difficult. Please let me know what you guys think.

You are certainly out at Duke.

I didn't want to retake, this site convinced me to. I was a full time grad student, had a full time job, and studied for the lsat for my retake. Best decision I ever made. It sucks, but its worth it.

I think if you want to maximize your options for law school and the ensuing extended career, you should consider retaking, even though it's hard to fit in to your demanding work schedule. This is coming from someone who studied while deployed working a total of 70-80 hrs per week. It takes a huge commitment, but depending on your career goals, it will pay dividends in both outcome and cost of getting that outcome.

As it stands, no shot at Duke or Vandy, but that's a pretty arbitrary choice of schools, as is the T30 because we're talking about schools that place almost exclusively in their own regions. If you're considering a "T30," you should consider where you want to work following graduation and ask questions based on those specific markets/schools.

You all are probably right. I know I should retake because as I said my PT average was low 170s, which makes a world of difference. Is a school like Notre Dame within reason if I decide not to retake?

Tpb5493 wrote:You all are probably right. I know I should retake because as I said my PT average was low 170s, which makes a world of difference. Is a school like Notre Dame within reason if I decide not to retake?

Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

You'd be mostly wrong in all of those schools. ND and WUSTL have extremely limited national reach (meaning it's not impossible to get a job in the Southwest from either, but the odds are totally stacked against you). Arizona for cheap would be fine if you want AZ jobs, but even that's a bit of a gamble as a decent percent of grads struggle to find work from UA/ASU because it's a small market with two primary feeders.

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

They do not. If you want national reach, then it is a t13 or bust. Hence why they are the only ones referred to as their own group.

sparkytrainer wrote:

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

They do not. If you want national reach, then it is a t13 or bust. Hence why they are the only ones referred to as their own group.

When did T14 become T13?

Bumblefly94 wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

They do not. If you want national reach, then it is a t13 or bust. Hence why they are the only ones referred to as their own group.

When did T14 become T13?

When Georgetown dropped out of the t14. If you look at Georgetown's employment data for the past few years, its clear their employment stat profile is much closer to strong regional schools like Texas and UCLA. Their numbers are not close to even Cornell or NW. Georgetown numbers reflect clearly that they dont have the national power that the other national schools have, so hence the move to the t13.

sparkytrainer wrote:

Bumblefly94 wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

They do not. If you want national reach, then it is a t13 or bust. Hence why they are the only ones referred to as their own group.

When did T14 become T13?

When Georgetown dropped out of the t14. If you look at Georgetown's employment data for the past few years, its clear their employment stat profile is much closer to strong regional schools like Texas and UCLA. Their numbers are not close to even Cornell or NW. Georgetown numbers reflect clearly that they dont have the national power that the other national schools have, so hence the move to the t13.

This has been argued into the ground. Employment stats show a difference between GULC and the T13. GULC still places nationally at that lower rate though better than regionals do generally.

So depending how you want to define the subset will determine whether you consider it T13 or T14. It's mostly pointless though.

sparkytrainer wrote:

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

They do not. If you want national reach, then it is a t13 or bust. Hence why they are the only ones referred to as their own group.

I see. Perhaps a retake is the right move. It's a kick in the balls after studying all summer, but I do want my actual LSAT score to reflect my PT average.

Tpb5493 wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:

Tpb5493 wrote:

UVA2B wrote: Yes, maybe. But that still doesn't help you in making a good decision. Do you want to work any job in the Midwest (namely Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) with an outside shot at a place like NYC or another market following graduation?

Law schools aren't the end goal. The career you want in the location you want is the goal. If you can't define that goal, at least figure out whether the realities of the hiring at those schools would be what you want.

That's fair, and a good point. No, the Midwest is not a region that interests me. I was under the impression that schools like Notre Dame or Washington in St. Louis place graduates across the country, though I could be wrong. Ideally I'd like to work in the Southwest, and I do think I'm in at San Diego and Arizona.

They do not. If you want national reach, then it is a t13 or bust. Hence why they are the only ones referred to as their own group.

I see. Perhaps a retake is the right move. It's a kick in the balls after studying all summer, but I do want my actual LSAT score to reflect my PT average.

Smart thinking. Retaking is definitely what you need to do.