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Hey guys, I'm going right out of undergrad and into law school. I have a 168 LSAT, 3.96 GPA. I'm really involved on my campus and I've had four internships, including in my region's US Attorney's office. What do you think of my chances are at T14?

You'll get into some T14s but you should probably retake

There are a lot of factors #'s don't convey, but for what it is worth:

168, 3.87 and i'm into UVA, Duke, and Gtown.

Yeah it was my second time though and I'm applying this cycle.

Agree with myronbolitar that there are other important factors besides numbers, but I'm at 168/3.99 and I've gotten into every T14 except Harvard and Yale. I applied way back in September though, so if you haven't applied yet you're going to have a different ballgame. I also have 2 years of WE between undergrad and law school, which I highly recommend you get.

Getting in to a few T-14 law schools is almost certain based on your numbers. Equally important is paying for law school.

@katthegreat11: Did you receive any scholarship offers ? And, if so, in what amounts to which schools ? Thanks in advance.

I would really recommend not applying this cycle. Your LSAT is not ideal for a large chunk of the T14, and you're applying too late in the game, especially when it comes to scholarship consideration.

Definitely retake June, that might be the no brainiest no brainer in the history of no brainers. It's a freeroll with literally no downside.

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CanadianWolf wrote:Getting in to a few T-14 law schools is almost certain based on your numbers. Equally important is paying for law school.

@katthegreat11: Did you receive any scholarship offers ? And, if so, in what amounts to which schools ? Thanks in advance.

Yup I've received a few but most schools have not sent them out. All my stuff is on LSN for anyone curious.

myronbolitar wrote:There are a lot of factors #'s don't convey, but for what it is worth:

168, 3.87 and i'm into UVA, Duke, and Gtown.

Great username

OP, you do not need to retake. Sure if you want to, go for it. If you scored way below your PTs, you didn't feel like you gave it your all studying, or there are other legitimate reasons why you feel that 168 doesn't represent your true ability on the LSAT, then yes, retake. But if you gave it your all and scored at or above your PT average, then I think there are more important things you can do to improve your application. #1, if you haven't applied already, consider sitting this cycle out- you are incredibly incredibly late to the game. #2, consider getting some work experience to round out your application and make you an all-around more interesting candidate.

168 is a fucking great score and you can get into plenty of T14s with money with it... if you make sure every other aspect of your application is as strong as possible.

katthegreat11 wrote:OP, you do not need to retake. Sure if you want to, go for it. If you scored way below your PTs, you didn't feel like you gave it your all studying, or there are other legitimate reasons why you feel that 168 doesn't represent your true ability on the LSAT, then yes, retake. But if you gave it your all and scored at or above your PT average, then I think there are more important things you can do to improve your application. #1, if you haven't applied already, consider sitting this cycle out- you are incredibly incredibly late to the game. #2, consider getting some work experience to round out your application and make you an all-around more interesting candidate.

168 is a fucking great score and you can get into plenty of T14s with money with it... if you make sure every other aspect of your application is as strong as possible.

This is wrong, retaking the LSAT is imperative. Just one more point could make a huge difference.

It's a freeroll, there's no reason not to. This advice is 100% wrong, and dangerous. Please do not do this.

As a brief sanity check, the downside to retaking is:

Spending more money on registration + also study materials if you decide to sign up for a class
Studying again, which is huge time suck, and can interfere with work/life performance
The fact that a significant amount of people don't do considerably better on a retake, especially when you're trying to get from a top 160s to a 170.

What I did was apply to the schools I really wanted to get into to see if I could get in this cycle. If i don't succeed, I'll retake, but I don't think it's necessarily crucial - I think a lot of people are going to apply to law school next year due to Trump - might as well beat that wave if you can.

tinycatfriend wrote:As a brief sanity check, the downside to retaking is:

Spending more money on registration + also study materials if you decide to sign up for a class
Studying again, which is huge time suck, and can interfere with work/life performance
The fact that a significant amount of people don't do considerably better on a retake, especially when you're trying to get from a top 160s to a 170.

What I did was apply to the schools I really wanted to get into to see if I could get in this cycle. If i don't succeed, I'll retake, but I don't think it's necessarily crucial - I think a lot of people are going to apply to law school next year due to Trump - might as well beat that wave if you can.

I don't think the downsides you listed come anywhere close to negating the potential upside of a higher score. I think OP would have some great opportunities next cycle with his current score, but with that being said, I don't see a reason not to retake in June when the worst outcome is net zero and the best outcome is better schools/more $$$.

Why do you think Trump would cause a larger wave next year?

tinycatfriend wrote:As a brief sanity check, the downside to retaking is:

Spending more money on registration + also study materials if you decide to sign up for a class
Studying again, which is huge time suck, and can interfere with work/life performance
The fact that a significant amount of people don't do considerably better on a retake, especially when you're trying to get from a top 160s to a 170.

What I did was apply to the schools I really wanted to get into to see if I could get in this cycle. If i don't succeed, I'll retake, but I don't think it's necessarily crucial - I think a lot of people are going to apply to law school next year due to Trump - might as well beat that wave if you can.

None of those are really downsides broseph

Also we're talking about a 30+ year career that you're setting yourself up for so suck it up buttercup.

It's not that much money

You'll have plenty of time to work or drink/play video games or whatever it is you want to do while studying

Other people not doing significantly better shouldn't be a factor at all. Plus, literally one point. One. ONE. Can make an enormous difference.

I mean, if you don't even want to do any more prep you should still roll the dice on a retake. You'll be out whatever ungodly amount they charge you to take the test now, and you'll waste about 8 hours of your life. Bink a higher score- sweet! Bink a 159- no biggie, no one cares. Just proceed with the plan as is.

tinycatfriend wrote:As a brief sanity check, the downside to retaking is:

Spending more money on registration + also study materials if you decide to sign up for a class
Studying again, which is huge time suck, and can interfere with work/life performance
The fact that a significant amount of people don't do considerably better on a retake, especially when you're trying to get from a top 160s to a 170.

What I did was apply to the schools I really wanted to get into to see if I could get in this cycle. If i don't succeed, I'll retake, but I don't think it's necessarily crucial - I think a lot of people are going to apply to law school next year due to Trump - might as well beat that wave if you can.

Lol. Citing Trump as the reason to not retake and rush this application cycle has got to be the most absurd rationale I've seen on here. 1) That's completely baseless. 2) Why should we care if more people apply next year because of Trump? More poor-performing, poor-scoring people applying just makes a 168+ score look even more appealing. You surely can't be trying to say that there are loads of smart/LSAT-proficient people that have just been chomping at the bit to apply to law school, and Trump is what is going to push them over the edge to actually go for it.

So, the Trump thing is due to a lot of people who I know - who are very brilliant - who have now seen the value of a legal education and are planning to apply. Assuming I don't have a completely unrepresentative base (which is a large assumption), we could end up seeing more competition.

Also, OP's GPA is really, really good, assuming they went to a decent school, so the LSAT, while important, isn't bad at all and could easily be mitigated with said GPA.

As for work/time balance, I don't know about you, but I have a full-time NYC job. I often don't have any free time after work anyway, and adding in the LSAT is a really big ask, which is why it's important to keep in mind - if someone's at an easy job, that's one thing, but if you're a GS banker or some shit like that, the extra time could actually consume your life.

More relevant: http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source ... erdata.pdf

You will, hopefully, gain one extra point, on average. If you're ready to apply this cycle, might as well roll the dice and see where you get into, rather than likely doing the exact same application next year.

This also depends on your place in life - if you're a junior in college, I'd say retake, you have to do something for the next year anyway. But if you're already working, go for it.

It also depends on what T14 you want. With those numbers you're fine on the lower T14, and if that's what you want, go for it. For HYS, it's a crapshoot anyway. A higher LSAT will help, but its obviously not a guarantee.

tinycatfriend wrote: More relevant: http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source ... erdata.pdf

You will, hopefully, gain one extra point, on average. If you're ready to apply this cycle, might as well roll the dice and see where you get into, rather than likely doing the exact same application next year.

Where are you seeing the specific point gain? The only thing that chart shows (which completely contradicts your argument, incidentally) is that a retake more often results in a higher score than a lower one. And as mentioned, gaining one point can be worth a metric ton of scholarship money, especially since that one point would be added to not applying stupidly late in the cycle.

Just to be clear: Even if you were committed to attending this cycle NO MATTER WHAT and even if you were committed to not spending one more second or one more dollar studying for the LSAT NO MATTER WHAT, retaking in June would 100% be a no brainer. Try and squeeze out an extra point at least. See if that will get you more scholarship money. It's clearly the right thing to do.

Of course you should also dedicate yourself to a retake and consider applying early next cycle. But even if you do neither of those things you should retake the LSAT.

get some irl work experience

BigZuck wrote:

katthegreat11 wrote:OP, you do not need to retake. Sure if you want to, go for it. If you scored way below your PTs, you didn't feel like you gave it your all studying, or there are other legitimate reasons why you feel that 168 doesn't represent your true ability on the LSAT, then yes, retake. But if you gave it your all and scored at or above your PT average, then I think there are more important things you can do to improve your application. #1, if you haven't applied already, consider sitting this cycle out- you are incredibly incredibly late to the game. #2, consider getting some work experience to round out your application and make you an all-around more interesting candidate.

168 is a fucking great score and you can get into plenty of T14s with money with it... if you make sure every other aspect of your application is as strong as possible.

This is wrong, retaking the LSAT is imperative. Just one more point could make a huge difference.

It's a freeroll, there's no reason not to. This advice is 100% wrong, and dangerous. Please do not do this.

Don't tell me my advice is 100% wrong and dangerous when I have the results to back it up. All I said is that OP shouldn't feel like they HAVE to retake just because the score is 168. That number is not enough info to give us the whole story. Why would OP retake if they studied for months, got 100% on LG, and scored at or above their practice tests?

katthegreat11 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

katthegreat11 wrote:OP, you do not need to retake. Sure if you want to, go for it. If you scored way below your PTs, you didn't feel like you gave it your all studying, or there are other legitimate reasons why you feel that 168 doesn't represent your true ability on the LSAT, then yes, retake. But if you gave it your all and scored at or above your PT average, then I think there are more important things you can do to improve your application. #1, if you haven't applied already, consider sitting this cycle out- you are incredibly incredibly late to the game. #2, consider getting some work experience to round out your application and make you an all-around more interesting candidate.

168 is a fucking great score and you can get into plenty of T14s with money with it... if you make sure every other aspect of your application is as strong as possible.

This is wrong, retaking the LSAT is imperative. Just one more point could make a huge difference.

It's a freeroll, there's no reason not to. This advice is 100% wrong, and dangerous. Please do not do this.

Don't tell me my advice is 100% wrong and dangerous when I have the results to back it up. All I said is that OP shouldn't feel like they HAVE to retake just because the score is 168. That number is not enough info to give us the whole story. Why would OP retake if they studied for months, got 100% on LG, and scored at or above their practice tests?

Because if OP studies for another few months and gets higher practice test scores, then that retake is worth thousands of dollars in scholarships. I don't know why this point hasn't sunk in yet.

katthegreat11 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:

katthegreat11 wrote:OP, you do not need to retake. Sure if you want to, go for it. If you scored way below your PTs, you didn't feel like you gave it your all studying, or there are other legitimate reasons why you feel that 168 doesn't represent your true ability on the LSAT, then yes, retake. But if you gave it your all and scored at or above your PT average, then I think there are more important things you can do to improve your application. #1, if you haven't applied already, consider sitting this cycle out- you are incredibly incredibly late to the game. #2, consider getting some work experience to round out your application and make you an all-around more interesting candidate.

168 is a fucking great score and you can get into plenty of T14s with money with it... if you make sure every other aspect of your application is as strong as possible.

This is wrong, retaking the LSAT is imperative. Just one more point could make a huge difference.

It's a freeroll, there's no reason not to. This advice is 100% wrong, and dangerous. Please do not do this.

Don't tell me my advice is 100% wrong and dangerous when I have the results to back it up. All I said is that OP shouldn't feel like they HAVE to retake just because the score is 168. That number is not enough info to give us the whole story. Why would OP retake if they studied for months, got 100% on LG, and scored at or above their practice tests?

At a bare minimum, the potential for thousands of dollars

This isn't rocket surgery, this is easy stuff guys

cavalier1138 wrote:

tinycatfriend wrote: More relevant: http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source ... erdata.pdf

You will, hopefully, gain one extra point, on average. If you're ready to apply this cycle, might as well roll the dice and see where you get into, rather than likely doing the exact same application next year.

Where are you seeing the specific point gain? The only thing that chart shows (which completely contradicts your argument, incidentally) is that a retake more often results in a higher score than a lower one. And as mentioned, gaining one point can be worth a metric ton of scholarship money, especially since that one point would be added to not applying stupidly late in the cycle.

the AVERAGE column is the percent change.And yes, sure, you may score better, but if you score better by 1 point, or 1 question, there's a trade-off there that should at least be acknowledged versus "there is no downside to retaking"