Top Law Schools

So, I've looked at My LSN, read the flowchart, and decided to make a post since I am a splitter(ish) and an URM.

Numbers:

3.6 GPA (Top 5 LAC with, and I am sure this won't matter, a note from my school explaining their grading policy and how that affects GPA)

LSAT: I took it this February and got a 170, which is what I was aiming for.

The kicker: I am a junior. Why did I take the LSAT now? I had 6 weeks of uninterrupted time to study, 3 weeks of interrupted time (finals, a trip) I am planning on applying next cycle or the cycle after next during a gap year.

I don't know if I set my parameters too strictly but there is no AA data that matches my numbers on My LSN and limited URM data - so I am turning to you all. My goal isn't just to get into the schools, its to come out with as little debt as possible, and a job. So I am aiming for the T14.

Q1: If I were to apply like this, what are my chances?
Q2: Should I retake the LSAT? (I really don't want to, but also money.) I was plateauing the week and a half before the test at 169/170 but again, I studied for six weeks so maybe I mentally needed a break.

Your numbers are good enough for a t14 full ride right now but I wouldn't bet on it. It wouldn't hurt to retake, especially since you have time. A 173+ puts you in Yale /full ride guarantee territory.

Greetings and congratulations! You're about to clean up in the law school admissions game.

You don't have to retake the LSAT. Your GPA is definitely on the lower side for HYS URM admissions, but if you're coming from a WIlliams, Swarthmore, Amherst kind of school, I think you'll get the benefit of the doubt. 170 should be more than enough for you. If you want to retake, it cannot hurt you, but you can be pretty sure you won't need it.

Here's what's going to happen, and you can trust flip on this:

Y: Who knows, but you have a shot.
S: Who knows, but you have a shot and a better one than you have at Yale.
H: In.
Col: In.
Chi: In.
NYU: In. Not sure if you will be an AnBryce/RTK type though.
Penn: Waitlist--it's nothing you did. It's just Penn's style.
UVA: In w/Dillard
Berkeley: Black box, so who knows. Make sure you do everything you can to convince them you're really interested.
Michigan: Could get in and get the Darrow. Could get YPed. Be prepared for anything.
Duke: In...if you have something that suggests a likelihood of being interested, like being from the south, you could get a Mordecai
Northwestern: You might get some static as a K-JD, but I'm calling in.
Cornell: In with at least $150k
GULC: In.

Does that look good enough for you?

fliptrip wrote:Greetings and congratulations! You're about to clean up in the law school admissions game.

You don't have to retake the LSAT. Your GPA is definitely on the lower side for HYS URM admissions, but if you're coming from a WIlliams, Swarthmore, Amherst kind of school, I think you'll get the benefit of the doubt. 170 should be more than enough for you. If you want to retake, it cannot hurt you, but you can be pretty sure you won't need it.

Here's what's going to happen, and you can trust flip on this:

Y: Who knows, but you have a shot.
S: Who knows, but you have a shot and a better one than you have at Yale.
H: In.
Col: In.
Chi: In.
NYU: In. Not sure if you will be an AnBryce/RTK type though.
Penn: Waitlist--it's nothing you did. It's just Penn's style.
UVA: In w/Dillard
Berkeley: Black box, so who knows. Make sure you do everything you can to convince them you're really interested.
Michigan: Could get in and get the Darrow. Could get YPed. Be prepared for anything.
Duke: In...if you have something that suggests a likelihood of being interested, like being from the south, you could get a Mordecai
Northwestern: You might get some static as a K-JD, but I'm calling in.
Cornell: In with at least $150k
GULC: In.

Does that look good enough for you?

Thank you so much! And since its not a row of white boxes on MyLSN it looks great to me.

What's your odds of getting your GPA up to 3.7 before you apply? Only thing holding you back would be your GPA, but as I said, if I pegged your school right, I think you'll get special consideration.

jnwa wrote:Your numbers are good enough for a t14 full ride right now but I wouldn't bet on it. It wouldn't hurt to retake, especially since you have time. A 173+ puts you in Yale /full ride guarantee territory.

Yeah that's what I was thinking (the it wouldn't hurt to retake part.) We will see how motivated I am this summer - I don't fancy going back to five hour a day study days on top on work but I am positive a mountainous pile of debt will hurt even more.

azaleafire wrote:

jnwa wrote:Your numbers are good enough for a t14 full ride right now but I wouldn't bet on it. It wouldn't hurt to retake, especially since you have time. A 173+ puts you in Yale /full ride guarantee territory.

Yeah that's what I was thinking (the it wouldn't hurt to retake part.) We will see how motivated I am this summer - I don't fancy going back to five hour a day study days on top on work but I am positive a mountainous pile of debt will hurt even more.

Not to get too personal on you, friend, but what are your family's financial circumstances looking like? I ask because you might get considerable need-based aid from HYS, which is where you're going. I can't say that I remember a single AA URM from these parts who got HYS and didn't take it. You might be that one Dillard-taking exception though.

fliptrip wrote:What's your odds of getting your GPA up to 3.7 before you apply? Only thing holding you back would be your GPA, but as I said, if I pegged your school right, I think you'll get special consideration.

If I pull straight As, 3.8. Two As, to A-s, 3.7. Straight A-s, 3.64. So it would require me hauling my butt a little bit.

It could happen, since I am moving away from the classes that are affected by the aforementioned policy, but I can't make any promises to myself haha. I am definitely trying though because that makes me graduate with Latin honors.

fliptrip wrote:

azaleafire wrote:

jnwa wrote:Your numbers are good enough for a t14 full ride right now but I wouldn't bet on it. It wouldn't hurt to retake, especially since you have time. A 173+ puts you in Yale /full ride guarantee territory.

Yeah that's what I was thinking (the it wouldn't hurt to retake part.) We will see how motivated I am this summer - I don't fancy going back to five hour a day study days on top on work but I am positive a mountainous pile of debt will hurt even more.

Not to get too personal on you, friend, but what are your family's financial circumstances looking like? I ask because you might get considerable need-based aid from HYS, which is where you're going. I can't say that I remember a single AA URM from these parts who got HYS and didn't take it. You might be that one Dillard-taking exception though.

I am solidly middle class. I get a decent amount of need based aid at my current school, but I am not pell-grant eligible or anything.

Okay, I'm putting my bet in now...azalea's going to HYS.

Don't retake because it's not necessary for you... Raise your gpa, get some modest softs (create organizations and join others where you can stand out, and spend 4 months writing the personal statement, diversity statement, and why "insert school" essays of a lifetime... Apply only to the top 14 schools you would like graduate from on the first day applications are open... Your senior year should be as stress free as possible.

mynameismyname wrote:Don't retake because it's not necessary for you... Raise your gpa, get some modest softs (create organizations and join others where you can stand out, and spend 4 months writing the personal statement, diversity statement, and why "insert school" essays of a lifetime... Apply only to the top 14 schools you would like graduate from on the first day applications are open... Your senior year should be as stress free as possible.

I like you haha. I will definitely take this advice into consideration.

My reply might be redundant, but I'm telling you once again you DO NOT need to retake. If you're AA, you are golden. Boost your GPA as much as possible, get some interesting & challenging internships, and work your butt off on those essays. Shoot for Yale, do not sell yourself short!! If you're any other URM, retaking isn't necessary, but could significantly make a difference for scholarships and possibly a Yale acceptance.

All in all, your focus should be on the rest of your application. Do not be fooled, those stats don't guarantee anything if the rest of your application is mediocre. Lastly, make sure your senior year gives you ample time to put together a competitive application. I cannot stress this enough. Oh, and please, please do not do anything risky for C&F issues.

Congrats on the LSAT score, you surely have an incredible cycle within your reach.

datenginedatcould wrote:My reply might be redundant, but I'm telling you once again you DO NOT need to retake. If you're AA, you are golden. Boost your GPA as much as possible, get some interesting & challenging internships, and work your butt off on those essays. Shoot for Yale, do not sell yourself short!! If you're any other URM, retaking isn't necessary, but could significantly make a difference for scholarships and possibly a Yale acceptance.

All in all, your focus should be on the rest of your application. Do not be fooled, those stats don't guarantee anything if the rest of your application is mediocre. Lastly, make sure your senior year gives you ample time to put together a competitive application. I cannot stress this enough. Oh, and please, please do not do anything risky for C&F issues.

Congrats on the LSAT score, you surely have an incredible cycle within your reach.

Oh hey, you look like a great person to ask - what is a C&F issue? I doubt I have them but I keep seeing it.

Take the easiest classes you can your senior year

C & F= Character and Fitness. Since you're going to be entering a profession that depends on trust and invests you with great power to do incredible harm potentially, your demonstrated character is an important consideration. So, any kind of academic dishonesty or general misconduct, criminal or otherwise could dramatically impact your admissions odds at schools. So, basically keep your nose clean and don't do anything stupid.

fliptrip wrote:C & F= Character and Fitness. Since you're going to be entering a profession that depends on trust and invests you with great power to do incredible harm potentially, your demonstrated character is an important consideration. So, any kind of academic dishonesty or general misconduct, criminal or otherwise could dramatically impact your admissions odds at schools. So, basically keep your nose clean and don't do anything stupid.

Thank you!

fliptrip wrote:C & F= Character and Fitness. Since you're going to be entering a profession that depends on trust and invests you with great power to do incredible harm potentially, your demonstrated character is an important consideration. So, any kind of academic dishonesty or general misconduct, criminal or otherwise could dramatically impact your admissions odds at schools. So, basically keep your nose clean and don't do anything stupid.

Did you get a t14 full ride offer?..iirc you had similar numbers to OP with a higher gpa. Also i dont really get the "dont retake" chorus. 170 is great but she only studied for 6 weeks, 2 points on the lsat matter a lot more than "refining your why x essay"

jnwa wrote:

fliptrip wrote:C & F= Character and Fitness. Since you're going to be entering a profession that depends on trust and invests you with great power to do incredible harm potentially, your demonstrated character is an important consideration. So, any kind of academic dishonesty or general misconduct, criminal or otherwise could dramatically impact your admissions odds at schools. So, basically keep your nose clean and don't do anything stupid.

Did you get a t14 full ride offer?..iirc you had similar numbers to OP with a higher gpa. Also i dont really get the "dont retake" chorus. 170 is great but she only studied for 6 weeks, 2 points on the lsat matter a lot more than "refining your why x essay"

In my travels across multiple cycles, I've gotten:

All of the t-14 except for Michigan. That's right, I've gotten Yale before.

3 full rides in the t-14.

So, I speak from knowledge, jnwa...her LSAT is high enough for incredible outcomes.

jnwa wrote:2 points on the lsat matter a lot more than "refining your why x essay"

For our OP, this could not be more wrong. She is complete and total YP bait. If she doesn't want to get YPed up and down the lower half of the t-14 she had better write "why x" essays. The schools KNOW she's getting H at least and probably 2/3 of HYS and not impossibly all 3.

The only remaining incentive OP has to retake would be to possibly get the Ruby and to a lesser extent, the Hamilton. She will need to get to at least 174 to have even a shot, and even then, her GPA is too low! So, yes, OP, since you mentioned debt aversion, you probably do not qualify for the best financial bargain in all of law school, the Rubenstein @ Chicago. As you are now, you will definitely be able to attend better schools than Chicago, which is REALLY saying something because Chicago is incredible. If getting that Ruby is important to you, you have to retake the LSAT.

jnwa wrote:
Also i dont really get the "dont retake" chorus. 170 is great but she only studied for 6 weeks, 2 points on the lsat matter a lot more than "refining your why x essay"

I think in the end re-taking will be one of those things that I will just decide whether I will do this summer after I am back from abroad. Probably following a similar situation to this past time - I studied from three weeks, took a practice test on the last day I could pay, and my score went up from my diagnostic (155) enough that I felt it was worth a shot to try for a 170. So maybe I will study this summer and if my score goes consistently above 170 I will pay for it. I definitely was thinking about that once I got my score back.

fliptrip wrote:

jnwa wrote:2 points on the lsat matter a lot more than "refining your why x essay"

For our OP, this could not be more wrong. She is complete and total YP bait. If she doesn't want to get YPed up and down the lower half of the t-14 she had better write "why x" essays. The schools KNOW she's getting H at least and probably 2/3 of HYS and not impossibly all 3.

The only remaining incentive OP has to retake would be to possibly get the Ruby and to a lesser extent, the Hamilton. She will need to get to at least 174 to have even a shot, and even then, her GPA is too low! So, yes, OP, since you mentioned debt aversion, you probably do not qualify for the best financial bargain in all of law school, the Rubenstein @ Chicago. As you are now, you will definitely be able to attend better schools than Chicago, which is REALLY saying something because Chicago is incredible. If getting that Ruby is important to you, you have to retake the LSAT.

I think we had this discussion before but i dont think CCN drop their full ride stips for URM's. It still seems like people need a 175+3.8 for Hamilton and something similar for Ruby. I know a 3.95 174 AA male who didnt get either but got Yale this cycle.

The Levy at Penn caps out at 2/3rd tuition for your third year which kills it imo. Darrow/Dillard/Mordecai are all possibilities and probably the targets. I wasnt saying dont write "why x's" just that considering the recent uptick in LSAT scores, a 170 might put you at the 75th while a 171 puts you above the 75th. Is that guaranteed to make a difference? No. But its still worth rewriting especially since she has time. Then again i tutor the LSAT and have a much much much higher tolerance for it than other people.

also..holy shit you turned down Yale?

Yup...got the damn snuggie and everything. Lesson as always...flip's a dummy.

Anyway, lc got the Ruby as a URM (she's MA) and she was 3.8/174, so that's what I was working from.

I definitely don't want you or OP to think that I find any harm in her retaking the test. I just think it's important that she sees clearly where her current score situates her and the things she can gain (she can't lose anything other than the $ to register) and then decide from there if it's worth it. I also think it's good to show the subtlety of thinking that can exist here in TLS-land to blunt the criticisms who say all we do is advise retaking.

Hey OP. I'm an AA urm woman with almost exactly your numbers. PM if you'd like to chat!

Edit: 1L now

fliptrip wrote:Yup...got the damn snuggie and everything. Lesson as always...flip's a dummy.

So...where'd you actually end up?

Congrats OP! You've got crazy good credentials, and I look forward to following your cycle eventually