3.96, 164 LSAT Forum

[nd74]

Hello all,

I spent a lot of time preparing for the LSAT and always tested in the 163-166 range, so the 164 LSAT score I received last December was not a surprise, and I have been told to focus on getting applications done early and well as opposed to retaking. I want to pursue a career as a public defender in the Midwest (where I grew up, plenty of ties throughout the region, very flexible) and am especially considering BC, Notre Dame, and Ohio State. Given that my entire long resume is geared toward public interest work and I carry a 3.96 from a top 15 national school, are my current numbers enough to compete for $$$ at these and similarly ranked schools? Should I take more money at a purely regional school with lower employment numbers or should I shoot higher and take the risk of government and LRAP debt servitude? It is tough to gather scholarship info on reverse splitters, so your help is greatly appreciated. Also, I'm white but was formed for public interest work by a lower class background.

Thanks!

[shump92]

Probably are fine for $$$ at that range of schools. TCR is going to be that you should find a way to retake somehow. If you know that you are not going to be able to improve though and are happy not shooting for the T14, I think you could be fine at schools like ND. Definitely don't be too concerned with debt if you are getting better employment outcomes somewhere else. Good luck.

[Mullens]

Hello all,

I spent a lot of time preparing for the LSAT and always tested in the 163-166 range, so the 164 LSAT score I received last December was not a surprise, and I have been told to focus on getting applications done early and well as opposed to retaking. I want to pursue a career as a public defender in the Midwest (where I grew up, plenty of ties throughout the region, very flexible) and am especially considering BC, Notre Dame, and Ohio State. Given that my entire long resume is geared toward public interest work and I carry a 3.96 from a top 15 national school, are my current numbers enough to compete for $$$ at these and similarly ranked schools? Should I take more money at a purely regional school with lower employment numbers or should I shoot higher and take the risk of government and LRAP debt servitude? It is tough to gather scholarship info on reverse splitters, so your help is greatly appreciated. Also, I'm white but was formed for public interest work by a lower class background.

Thanks!

The bolded above is terrible advice. You should retake the LSAT and not waste your GPA. A solid retake and you're looking at a great scholarship from UChicago, Michigan, or Northwestern. You have presented a false dichotomy based on not retaking. Retake.

[BigZuck]

The very flexible thing sounds good but it really isn't. You've gotta narrow the focus. Where are you from, specifically, and where do you want to end up, specifically? Hopefully those places are the same. And then go to the strongest regional law school in that region for free. And by that, I mean: if you want to be a public defender in Iowa, don't go to Minnesota because it's ranked higher (is it still? I assume it is). Go to the University of Iowa if you want to work in Iowa.

If you say "Oh, I have ties in North Dakota and Wisconsin and Indiana, I don't care, I'll work anywhere!" that really isn't good, that'll set you back when trying to find a job. If you really and truly are ambivalent, then just go to the school in the state you grew up in. That'll go a long way toward getting you employed.

All that said, schools like BC are clearly out, they make no sense for you and your stated goals.

Check out http://www.mylsn.info for chances at acceptance and money.

[nd74]

Thank you each for your great advice. Given that I'm within the bubble range of $$$ of BC/ND/OSU and sticker price at lower T14s, is the risk of a lower LSAT worth it? Could a 162, for example, seriously hurt my application? I know that schools tend to average or take the highest, but they would see that 161 or 162.

[Fiero85]

The bolded above is terrible advice. You should retake the LSAT and not waste your GPA. A solid retake and you're looking at a great scholarship from UChicago, Michigan, or Northwestern. You have presented a false dichotomy based on not retaking. Retake.

^spot on.

Anyone with a 164 now is capable of getting a few more points with a moderate amount of studying/drilling/PTing. Just put in the time. If you want to be a PD your goal should be a full ride. And since you have a great GPA, a full ride is very doable. Cop like a 167-169 (only like one or two more questions correct per section) and you'll be looking at big money to every midwestern school below UChi. You have plenty of time to study and retake in October, and I suggest you do. Apply around Thanksgiving is plenty early.

Good luck!

[nd74]

Also, I'm from Michigan, so the regional schools within the state (MSU, Wayne, Detroit Mercy) are out by default because their employment numbers are so awful. $$$ at U of M might be out of reach even with a retake, so I'm looking outside the state.

[Fiero85]

Thank you each for your great advice. Given that I'm within the bubble range of $$$ of BC/ND/OSU and sticker price at lower T14s, is the risk of a lower LSAT worth it? Could a 162, for example, seriously hurt my application? I know that schools tend to average or take the highest, but they would see that 161 or 162.

Only the highest matters. Essentially zero schools average in practice, even the ones who used to claim to. That is a complete non-issue.

[BigZuck]

Hello all,

I spent a lot of time preparing for the LSAT and always tested in the 163-166 range, so the 164 LSAT score I received last December was not a surprise, and I have been told to focus on getting applications done early and well as opposed to retaking. I want to pursue a career as a public defender in the Midwest (where I grew up, plenty of ties throughout the region, very flexible) and am especially considering BC, Notre Dame, and Ohio State. Given that my entire long resume is geared toward public interest work and I carry a 3.96 from a top 15 national school, are my current numbers enough to compete for $$$ at these and similarly ranked schools? Should I take more money at a purely regional school with lower employment numbers or should I shoot higher and take the risk of government and LRAP debt servitude? It is tough to gather scholarship info on reverse splitters, so your help is greatly appreciated. Also, I'm white but was formed for public interest work by a lower class background.

Thanks!

The bolded above is terrible advice. You should retake the LSAT and not waste your GPA. A solid retake and you're looking at a great scholarship from UChicago, Michigan, or Northwestern. You have presented a false dichotomy based on not retaking. Retake.

I tend to be skeptical of 0Ls interested in PI but if the OP is really going to do that then all those schools seem overkill to me (unless the OP wants to do PI in Illinois or Michigan specifically).

But I guess, yeah, might as well maximize your score potential.

[ILoveYou]

Hello all,

I spent a lot of time preparing for the LSAT and always tested in the 163-166 range, so the 164 LSAT score I received last December was not a surprise, and I have been told to focus on getting applications done early and well as opposed to retaking. I want to pursue a career as a public defender in the Midwest (where I grew up, plenty of ties throughout the region, very flexible) and am especially considering BC, Notre Dame, and Ohio State. Given that my entire long resume is geared toward public interest work and I carry a 3.96 from a top 15 national school, are my current numbers enough to compete for $$$ at these and similarly ranked schools? Should I take more money at a purely regional school with lower employment numbers or should I shoot higher and take the risk of government and LRAP debt servitude? It is tough to gather scholarship info on reverse splitters, so your help is greatly appreciated. Also, I'm white but was formed for public interest work by a lower class background.

Thanks!

The bolded above is terrible advice. You should retake the LSAT and not waste your GPA. A solid retake and you're looking at a great scholarship from UChicago, Michigan, or Northwestern. You have presented a false dichotomy based on not retaking. Retake.

Have to agree with Mullens. 3-5 more points and you're looking at really good money from Michigan or Northwestern, a few more and you've got good prospects at UChicago. Your improved options coming out of any of those schools are well worth whatever you see as the cost of the retake. Still plenty of time to prep for October or December, which might even keep you from having to sit out another year. Even if you do end up having to sit out the cycle, the retake could be well worth it. I wouldn't stress too hard over the risk of a lower score.

[Fiero85]

Also, I'm from Michigan, so the garbage regional schools within the state (MSU, Wayne, Detroit Mercy) are out by default because their employment numbers are so awful. $$$ at U of M might be out of reach even with a retake, so I'm looking outside the state.

False. Fully to UMich is actually within reach for you with some effort. Go for that.

[BigZuck]

Thank you each for your great advice. Given that I'm within the bubble range of $$$ of BC/ND/OSU and sticker price at lower T14s, is the risk of a lower LSAT worth it? Could a 162, for example, seriously hurt my application? I know that schools tend to average or take the highest, but they would see that 161 or 162.

Only the highest matters. Essentially zero schools average in practice, even the ones who used to claim to. That is a complete non-issue.

Yeah, any school that will accept you with your current numbers could not care less if you score lower on a retake.

I don't give these out very often but that's a BigZuck guarantee that you can take straight to the bank.

[benwyatt]

Post removed.

[Fiero85]

OP: seems like, based on your goals/LSAT improvement potential/ties to Michigan that you should be shooting for:

UMich fully>Northwestern fully>>>>>>>>>ND fully>>>60-80% off Mich or NU>>>>>WUSTL fully or BC fully>>>>>66-80% off ND or OSU fully or UIUC fully

below that last group, don't go

[Clemenceau]

Retaking for umich with money seems like a no brainer. Umich does great in PI and affords the flexibility of going to biglaw if you bail on PI(which happens). Also, you're from michigan, and umich + ties is a killer combo for someone trying to stay local.

Furthermore, even if you come up short of a full ride, umich has a real solid lrap if memory serves me right.

[Indifference]

Yep, retake. I tested mid 160s too. Went 163 then 164 on my first two takes. Then went 177 on my final one. Retake and profit.

[nd74]

Thanks again for your responses, everyone. I think they will prove to be enormously helpful.

[Poptorts]

You should retake the LSAT and not waste your GPA. Retake.

[nd74]

Update: Accidentally neglected to add Minnesota to the mix on here, but I have family there and love the Twin Cities region. With average softs (four years of decent on-campus leadership positions, working 20 hours a week through school, regional public interest work-laden resume) and little otherwise exciting about me (I guess I've been a seminarian and door-to-door salesman, so that's a thing), would a 164 and 3.96 actually put me in the running for a UMN fully like LSN suggests it does for people with similar numbers?

[BigZuck]

Update: Accidentally neglected to add Minnesota to the mix on here, but I have family there and love the Twin Cities region. With average softs (four years of decent on-campus leadership positions, working 20 hours a week through school, regional public interest work-laden resume) and little otherwise exciting about me (I guess I've been a seminarian and door-to-door salesman, so that's a thing), would a 164 and 3.96 actually put me in the running for a UMN fully like LSN suggests it does for people with similar numbers?

Why wouldn't it? Do you think they are lying?

If you want to do PI/local government work in Minnesota (and Minnesota exclusively) then I doubt you could do much better than the U.

[nd74]

Update: Accidentally neglected to add Minnesota to the mix on here, but I have family there and love the Twin Cities region. With average softs (four years of decent on-campus leadership positions, working 20 hours a week through school, regional public interest work-laden resume) and little otherwise exciting about me (I guess I've been a seminarian and door-to-door salesman, so that's a thing), would a 164 and 3.96 actually put me in the running for a UMN fully like LSN suggests it does for people with similar numbers?

Why wouldn't it? Do you think they are lying?

If you want to do PI/local government work in Minnesota (and Minnesota exclusively) then I doubt you could do much better than the U.

I'm just concerned about the bearing softs would have on my ability to contend. Does my non-URM status and lack of outstanding, balls-to-the-wall mindblowing work experience seriously and generally hurt my scholarship contention at UMN and similarly ranked schools? LSN tends to skew, among those with more detailed profiles, toward incredible softs, so it is unclear, among those who fail to share the strength of their softs, whether such people are incredible candidates.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

You should retake the LSAT and not waste your GPA. Retake.

[KMart]

Update: Accidentally neglected to add Minnesota to the mix on here, but I have family there and love the Twin Cities region. With average softs (four years of decent on-campus leadership positions, working 20 hours a week through school, regional public interest work-laden resume) and little otherwise exciting about me (I guess I've been a seminarian and door-to-door salesman, so that's a thing), would a 164 and 3.96 actually put me in the running for a UMN fully like LSN suggests it does for people with similar numbers?

You'll get a great offer from them, but the school will limit you to pretty much exclusively that state. Know going into it that the law school is highly regional.