Top Law Schools

Hi everyone,

I hope one or two of you have the knowledge and the time to give me an estimation of what my chances are of getting into a top law school like Berkeley, Yale, UCLA or Columbia, to pursue an LLM or, more ideally, a JSD degree.

- I did a bachelor's degree at Utrecht University. My GPA there was not what you might want when you're going to apply for a top-law school, only 3.0., but I am certain that this degree didn't bring out the best in me. I have an absolute aversion to the study of legal practice and its intricate, minute rules and details, but I am thrilled about legal philosophy, public policy political philosophy and jurisprudence. It was in these more abstract courses that I got very high marks, sadly there were few of these, also I did some extra-disciplinary courses in economics and business economics and political philosophy (which is quite unusual in the narrow European system). Also I did an exchange with Paris-2 university (Pantheon-Assas) which is the best law school in all of France.
- Now I am pursuing a master's degree in legal philosophy and jurisprudence at Leiden University, and luckily my grades have skyrocketed, because I am passionate about the content and I have actually started putting work in, which I didn't do in my Bachelor period. My intention and projection is to finish this degree in july 2015 with high marks (4.0 GPA and distinctions).
- After this I will go on an exchange of 6 months with the University of Vienna to prime my German.

With all this is in mind I intend to apply for the American law school in 2016, I will be 23 by then, I will be fluent in Dutch, English, French and German, I have a ton of extra-curricular experience including volunteering in Rio de Janeiro for a few months (and picking up some basic Portuguese), competitive rowing and membership of a student's fraternity and I've played the piano since I was eleven.

Perhaps a lot of this information is irrelevant, in any case I would love to hear some ideas about my chances and I should state again that I prefer a JSD program because I want to pursue a career in the academic world, I do not at all want to become a lawyer or clerk.

pretty sure that foreign GPA's don't matter. You have some nice softs, nothing amazing. Take the lsat, get a 170+ and enjoy t-14. Though you're prob not gonna get much financing, if any from the schools, so loans.

gnomgnomuch wrote:pretty sure that foreign GPA's don't matter. You have some nice softs, nothing amazing. Take the lsat, get a 170+ and enjoy t-14. Though you're prob not gonna get much financing, if any from the schools, so loans.

Thanks for responding, if foreign GPA's don't matter, can you elaborate for me on what does matter for European students? And is the LSAT a requirement for European students? Also financing won't be a problem, I got it covered.

AmanInFull wrote:

gnomgnomuch wrote:pretty sure that foreign GPA's don't matter. You have some nice softs, nothing amazing. Take the lsat, get a 170+ and enjoy t-14. Though you're prob not gonna get much financing, if any from the schools, so loans.

Thanks for responding, if foreign GPA's don't matter, can you elaborate for me on what does matter for European students? And is the LSAT a requirement for European students? Also financing won't be a problem, I got it covered.

Do you want to be an academic in the US or in the Netherlands (or some other part of Europe)? If the answer is US, perhaps you should consider the JD. If you want to be an academic back home, an LLM should do it, and you are probably better off getting a doctorate in the country where you want to work - the JSD is, as far as I can tell, a rather uncommon degree, and it would not necessarily be considered equivalent to a doctoral degree in Europe, as you don't earn the Ph.D. title.

Gnomgnom presumably didn't read very well - the consensus, for whatever it's worth, is that for JD admissions, your foreign GPA doesn't really matter all that much; it mostly comes down to the LSAT. LLM admissions don't require taking the LSAT so these work differently (and I have no idea what they do look at).

hereisonehand wrote:

AmanInFull wrote:

gnomgnomuch wrote:pretty sure that foreign GPA's don't matter. You have some nice softs, nothing amazing. Take the lsat, get a 170+ and enjoy t-14. Though you're prob not gonna get much financing, if any from the schools, so loans.

Thanks for responding, if foreign GPA's don't matter, can you elaborate for me on what does matter for European students? And is the LSAT a requirement for European students? Also financing won't be a problem, I got it covered.

Do you want to be an academic in the US or in the Netherlands (or some other part of Europe)? If the answer is US, perhaps you should consider the JD. If you want to be an academic back home, an LLM should do it, and you are probably better off getting a doctorate in the country where you want to work - the JSD is, as far as I can tell, a rather uncommon degree, and it would not necessarily be considered equivalent to a doctoral degree in Europe, as you don't earn the Ph.D. title.

Gnomgnom presumably didn't read very well - the consensus, for whatever it's worth, is that for JD admissions, your foreign GPA doesn't really matter all that much; it mostly comes down to the LSAT. LLM admissions don't require taking the LSAT so these work differently (and I have no idea what they do look at).

I'd like to become an academic anywhere where I can find a position at a reputable university, whether that be France, the Netherlands, Germany or the U.S. but that is only my initial goal. From that position I'd like to become an internationally renowned writer and political commentator on a wide range of subjects. Thanks for the advice!

AmanInFull wrote:I'd like to become an academic anywhere where I can find a position at a reputable university, whether that be France, the Netherlands, Germany or the U.S. but that is only my initial goal. From that position I'd like to become an internationally renowned writer and political commentator on a wide range of subjects.

Good luck, follow your dreams!

Don't know about Europe, but of you want to get a place in US law schools, SJD from HYS are really the minimum. Your credentials are not good enough for you to get into any of them.

I would suggest doing a master degree in Europe first. Do well and get things published during the master. Get strong LORs. Only by them will you have a decent chance at HYS and possibly a teaching position in the US in the long run. Indeed, if you want to be comeptitive in the US teaching market, you need JSD + PHD.

JD is not a good path for forigners interested in academics. Foreigners are essentially prohibited from clerking, which is essential for academics. A JD/PHD might do instead though.

Do yourself a huge favor and look elsewhere to satisfy your intellectual curiosities. Columbia's LLM program is 85k cost of attendance for a single year, and this isn't even an abnormally expensive program.

Alright, 85k is too much I agree. But I did see that there are LLM's for 35k at Berkeley or UCLA, and JSD programs for the exact same price but spanning over three years. I appreciate the advice although I didn't totally get it. I absolutely refuse to do a JD, I already plowed my way through a bachelor's degree in Dutch law and I don't think I would have the energy to again learn about all the boring details of the law. I see myself much more as a philosopher than a lawyer. Surely, a JD degree is not important for an academic career on the crossroads of philosophy and politics? In history there have been many German-speaking legal intellectuals, such as Hans Kelsen, who came to the U.S. and acquired teaching positions at famous universities.

@BKB, what do you mean by HYS?

AmanInFull wrote:But I did see that there are LLM's for 35k at Berkeley

On their page: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/5657.htm

LL.M. Traditional Track (Fall/Spring): Tuition and fees for the 2014-2015 academic year are estimated to be $52,985. Because this program does not distinguish between in or out-of-state fees, there are no discounts for California residents.

LL.M. Professional Track (Summer): Tuition for the professional track is the same as the traditional track. Approximately half of the total tuition and fees is due each summer semester.

Which, coupled with estimated COL expenses, comes out to... 76k. Little higher than 35k. I didn't check UCLA, but not counting on much better over there. The JSD at Berkeley is $128,500, and that's before any interest (which will be notable over three years)

I see myself much more as a philosopher than a lawyer. Surely, a JD degree is not important for an academic career on the crossroads of philosophy and politics?

Then do a PhD. Having a JD is pretty close to mandatory if you want to teach law in the US.

It sounds to me like you'd be much better off getting a PhD in philosophy and studying jurisprudence that way instead. (Or maybe political science or sociology.) In the US, the advanced degrees in law aren't really very good preparation for academia, and most legal academics don't have them. It's usually either just a JD with impeccable academic credentials from a top school, or a JD + PhD (ideally with the same JD pedigree). Besides, PhD programs pay you to attend rather than the other way around, so are a much better deal. You also won't get much time/opportunity to write and publish in a JD program compared to a PhD program.

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musedreverie wrote:

AmanInFull wrote:Hi everyone,

I hope one or two of you have the knowledge and the time to give me an estimation of what my chances are of getting into a top law school like Berkeley, Yale, UCLA or Columbia, to pursue an LLM or, more ideally, a JSD degree.

- I did a bachelor's degree at Utrecht University. My GPA there was not what you might want when you're going to apply for a top-law school, only 3.0., but I am certain that this degree didn't bring out the best in me. I have an absolute aversion to the study of legal practice and its intricate, minute rules and details, but I am thrilled about legal philosophy, public policy political philosophy and jurisprudence. It was in these more abstract courses that I got very high marks, sadly there were few of these, also I did some extra-disciplinary courses in economics and business economics and political philosophy (which is quite unusual in the narrow European system). Also I did an exchange with Paris-2 university (Pantheon-Assas) which is the best law school in all of France.
- Now I am pursuing a master's degree in legal philosophy and jurisprudence at Leiden University, and luckily my grades have skyrocketed, because I am passionate about the content and I have actually started putting work in, which I didn't do in my Bachelor period. My intention and projection is to finish this degree in july 2015 with high marks (4.0 GPA and distinctions).
- After this I will go on an exchange of 6 months with the University of Vienna to prime my German.

With all this is in mind I intend to apply for the American law school in 2016, I will be 23 by then, I will be fluent in Dutch, English, French and German, I have a ton of extra-curricular experience including volunteering in Rio de Janeiro for a few months (and picking up some basic Portuguese), competitive rowing and membership of a student's fraternity and I've played the piano since I was eleven.

Perhaps a lot of this information is irrelevant, in any case I would love to hear some ideas about my chances and I should state again that I prefer a JSD program because I want to pursue a career in the academic world, I do not at all want to become a lawyer or clerk.

Hello fellow European law student! I did my LLB in Europe as well--the UK! (perhaps not long to go before it un-EUs itself, but still.)

I understand your ravings about the intricacies involved in the procedural side of law. But if you are serious about doing a JD, then you should brace yourself to do the nit-picking process all over again. 1st year JD alone, in most law schools, has civil/criminal procedure law, evidence, contracts, torts--the works. JD I figured, is not really an academic degree. It being a professional degree means more importance is placed on the practice of law rather than the jurisprudence of it.

I think it's best that you go instead and do an LLM and then move on to JSD/SJD to pursue your academic dreams. This is especially so if you don't have to worry about $$. I know a few friends from my undergrad who did just that and are studying jurisprudence/ human rights law at JSD/SJD level at universities like Chicago and Berkeley.

And for the record, HYS = Harvard, Yale, Stanford, the top three JD schools.

Well since you include the UK in Europe I guess there is still some hope left for the British, I think it would be a very stupid move if they were to leave the EU. I think you're absolutely right and I will take your advice to heart, the 'works' of a JD program are something I am simply not prepared to do all over again. As I said in my opening post I think I will go to Vienna first to learn German and then I will turn my attention more towards political theory and sociology as I think that is where my true interests lie.

Where in the UK did you study and what are your plans?

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@musedreverie - where are you planning to apply?