Top Law Schools

My situation is a little bit different than I think most other applicants. I'm a self-taught computer programmer and started working in 2001. About 2005-6, I thought I wanted to consider law school and took about a year and a half of community college (mostly online, but some in person classes) while working full-time. Then, I got promoted to a Director of Software Engineering and had a difficult time getting the last few classes to transfer scheduled because they all required in-person classes with times that didn't work for me, so with my career going just fine without the degree I just stopped. Last year, I decided I wanted to at least finish my bachelor's degree and possibly apply to law school, so I took the last few community college classes I needed and transferred to Oregon State due to the fact that they had an online Political Science program that was fully accredited and did not distinguish between whether the classes were taken online or in person. So, when I finish next year, it will technically not be an online degree, but nearly every class was taken online.

I had a 3.6 from my 2005-6 classes, but bumped that up to a 3.69 before transferring and have a 3.76 now (3.96 at Oregon state). I would expect to be around a 3.8 or higher. I have 9 more classes to take, including this semester and 3 b's or 6 a-'s or some combination of that would get me to 3.8, so I think it's a reasonable estimate. I took the September 2014 LSAT and scored a 177.

My wife and I just bought a house in Berkeley, so Berkeley or Stanford would be my ideal choices and my GPA/LSAT numbers seem reasonable (at least for Berkeley).

Because I went to so many different schools and took mostly online classes, I don't have a great selection for references. The CTO at my company who I've directly reported to for about 7 years has a BS and MS from Stanford, but other than that it will probably be a struggle to get good reference letters.

Do I have a reasonable chance at any of the top tier law schools or is the fact that my undergraduate education is so scattered going to make it difficult?

Thanks,

Doug

I'd say you have a very comfortable shot at everything but HYS, with a fair shot at H. You can't ever be "locked into" YS, and they look heavily at rec letters and softs because all their applicants are 3.8+ 175+ pple. Consider leaving cali for school. Or go to UCLA/USC with a full ride. Very good chance at Berkeley though so you're fine. enjoy law school.

Sounds like you've got a kush gig, Doug. Why do you want to go to law school, and what do you want to do with that JD?

A combination of reasons. For one, I've always been interested in law and this was the career path I wanted to take out of high school. I kind of fell into programming because I could do it and the money was good. It has been challenging and enjoyable, but I'm just ready for something completely different. I also want to move into a profession where it feels like I'm actually helping people and making the world a better place. I realize I can do that within tech; I'd just have to switch companies. But, I'd like to go into criminal defense and work with lower income defendants.

I was looking for a top-tier law school so that I can pay the debt back reasonably quickly, but PeanutsNJam's idea of going to UCLA/USC on a full-ride is interesting too. I need to do some more research on that because I was just unaware of the possibilities of full-ride academic scholarships and that solves the same problem as earning a high salary for a couple years.

Since your question is geared towards the online degree - I figured I would chime in. I just got into a T14 with an LSAT score below their 25th percentile and a 3.75 from an online school that doesn't have the best reputation. Full disclosure -- I've had a successful 20 year military career and I am sure that contributed significantly to my acceptance. However, I am under the assumption that the school I am attending didn't care that my degree was online -- they just cared about the GPA. I'd say with your LSAT/GPA combo -- you're going to have your pick of T10s and a decent shot at the big three. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth! Good luck in your journey!

dlawrence wrote:A combination of reasons. For one, I've always been interested in law and this was the career path I wanted to take out of high school. I kind of fell into programming because I could do it and the money was good. It has been challenging and enjoyable, but I'm just ready for something completely different. I also want to move into a profession where it feels like I'm actually helping people and making the world a better place. I realize I can do that within tech; I'd just have to switch companies. But, I'd like to go into criminal defense and work with lower income defendants.

I was looking for a top-tier law school so that I can pay the debt back reasonably quickly, but PeanutsNJam's idea of going to UCLA/USC on a full-ride is interesting too. I need to do some more research on that because I was just unaware of the possibilities of full-ride academic scholarships and that solves the same problem as earning a high salary for a couple years.

Well the thing is if you decide to be a public defender, you won't pay the debt back "reasonably quickly" even with payback programs. On the other hand, if you decide to go to Berkeley with scholarship money and end up at a large firm, you would pay it back reasonably quickly but it's not the career you envision for yourself in the first place. THIS is the issue you should be struggling with. I think with your GPA even piecewise and online (consensus is that most admissions don't care and even Yale/Stanford only care somewhat) and your super-validating LSAT score, Stanford is definitely in play and Berkeley with partial scholarship is pretty much guaranteed. I wouldn't stress over that part so much as if you really want to give up the next 3-4 years of your life to become a lawyer and the tradeoffs thereof.

I suppose to give yourself options, you should just apply and see what kind of numbers you're working with and go from there. I wouldn't stress about the admissions aspect.

You'll have great outcomes from your cycle. You should blanket the T14/USC/UCLA and then decide based on your scholarship offers if it makes sense to attend. You might be able to get full-rides at some T14s and it might make your decision defensible.

On the other hand, if you decide to go to Berkeley with scholarship money and end up at a large firm, you would pay it back reasonably quickly but it's not the career you envision for yourself in the first place. THIS is the issue you should be struggling with.

This is exactly the issue I'm struggling with and discussed at length with my wife over dinner. My working assumptions have been from a financial perspective law school is probably too risky for me since I'd be giving up 3 years of a reasonably high salary to take on $150k in debt. My likely salary working for a big firm as an attorney is probably a bit higher than what I'm making now, but it would take a long time for that additional money to cover the 3 years + $150k. Scholarships change that calculation a little, but I'm not really looking at the change for the money. That said, I don't want to put our family in a ton of debt that we are paying for years either, so that's definitely the issue.

Is there a good resource for looking into what scholarship possibilities there are and what the chances of getting them are? This thread has been pretty eye-opening for me as my parents are pretty solidly middle class (I'm not sure whether that even matters anymore in your early 30's) and I've had a high income for the last 6-7 years, so I figured my financial aid options would be limited and I would be stuck with loans. But that changes the dynamic considerably.

Thanks to everybody who has chimed in. This site is fantastic.

The best, and surest way to see what kind of scholarships you'd get would be to just apply. Luckily it seems Berkeley and Stanford are more generous than others in the T14.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/national ... ions/2013/
http://mylsn.info/r/pre-law/scholarships/graph/

dlawrence wrote:

On the other hand, if you decide to go to Berkeley with scholarship money and end up at a large firm, you would pay it back reasonably quickly but it's not the career you envision for yourself in the first place. THIS is the issue you should be struggling with.

This is exactly the issue I'm struggling with and discussed at length with my wife over dinner. My working assumptions have been from a financial perspective law school is probably too risky for me since I'd be giving up 3 years of a reasonably high salary to take on $150k in debt. My likely salary working for a big firm as an attorney is probably a bit higher than what I'm making now, but it would take a long time for that additional money to cover the 3 years + $150k. Scholarships change that calculation a little, but I'm not really looking at the change for the money. That said, I don't want to put our family in a ton of debt that we are paying for years either, so that's definitely the issue.

Is there a good resource for looking into what scholarship possibilities there are and what the chances of getting them are? This thread has been pretty eye-opening for me as my parents are pretty solidly middle class (I'm not sure whether that even matters anymore in your early 30's) and I've had a high income for the last 6-7 years, so I figured my financial aid options would be limited and I would be stuck with loans. But that changes the dynamic considerably.

Thanks to everybody who has chimed in. This site is fantastic.

Without scholarships, your actual COA is going to be $300K + 3 years of lost wages (your wife's employment situation can change this only slightly). Depending on what a "bit higher" is, there is no way at all law school makes financial sense for you.

3.8 + 177 puts you in the running for a lot of money:

but even a full ride is likely going to be hard to justify given opportunity costs. Except at HYS, scholarships are merit- rather than need-based so your prior earnings and parents' situation are irrelevant. S and B are two of the most obnoxious T14s to be admitted to, and their scholarship situation makes it worse. (B has a rather unique scholarship structure where they match other schools' offers, but only sometimes.) You'd probably have to move out of California to get a full ride at a T14, and the fact that you have a house (and children?) makes this a nontrivial consideration.

Also, as pancakes3 noted, there are no jobs that will make you feel like you're doing good in the world that will also let you pay off the debt in a reasonable amount of time. And the ones that let you pay it off at all will be under LRAP, which means you will be living with relatively low income for that time as well.

You do you, but this seems to me that going to law school in your situation is reckless.

Apologies in advance if giving any of these numbers is considered in any way crass. I'm looking for some level-headed analysis here, so I think the numbers help and this has been really helpful for me so far.

Without scholarships, your actual COA is going to be $300K + 3 years of lost wages

When I look at Berkeley, Stanford and Columbia's websites, I see ranges from $70-85k / year for cost of attendance. So, $210-260k ish. Is the $300k adding in summers?

Depending on what a "bit higher" is, there is no way at all law school makes financial sense for you.

Looking at Forbes and USNews, I'm assuming the median starting salary from a T-10 is about $160k. My current total salary depends on stock grants, but on average, this is probably a $30k bump. I'm not sure what effect my technology knowledge or years of management experience has on my potential starting salary, but to be conservative, I'm assuming almost none.

Also, as pancakes3 noted, there are no jobs that will make you feel like you're doing good in the world that will also let you pay off the debt in a reasonable amount of time. And the ones that let you pay it off at all will be under LRAP, which means you will be living with relatively low income for that time as well.

I fully expected this and planned to have to spend at least 5-6 years in a big law firm to both pay back debt and hopefully gain useful experience. So, I'm definitely on board with this being a 10 year plan before I can actually make the switch into something I feel good about. I want to reasonably minimize risk but am not completely risk averse, especially since there doesn't seem to be any slow down in the tech job market and I can always fall back on that. I don't yet have children, but my wife and I plan to in the near future.

But, under the no scholarship scenario and assuming $300k is correct and that the salary difference doesn't change much (in practice, I think I have more growth trajectory in law than tech at this point), it would take 23 years to break even on the investment. That's obviously not great, but I'd still have 10 years of higher salary before thinking about retiring, maybe 15, so it's not terrible either. As I mentioned before, that's not really the type of work I'd prefer to do, but if I had to, I think it could still be net win.

Is it at all reasonable to think that it's possible to get a decent amount of scholarship money and then spend 5-6 years in a big law firm to pay down whatever debt remains and then switch to a more fulfilling practice?

I'm currently taking 16 upper division units and working 50-55 hours a week at my current job. I definitely understand Oregon State is not a T14 law school, but is it crazy to think I can do contract work for 15-20 hours a week (I understand 20 is the max for L1 students) and still do reasonably well in law school? I can pretty easily earn $60-65/hr as a contractor because I know so many of my company's existing products well and they constantly are hiring contractors around that rate. So, if I maybe looked more at Columbia and could get $40k/year and make even $30k/year part time working 10 hours a week, it seems like I could walk away $90k in debt and pay that off working in big law for 3-4 years and then be a little more free to do something I'd prefer.

Do these numbers make sense? Am I wasting my time trying to think through these scenarios and should I just apply, see what happens and then figure it out from there?

dlawrence wrote: When I look at Berkeley, Stanford and Columbia's websites, I see ranges from $70-85k / year for cost of attendance. So, $210-260k ish. Is the $300k adding in summers?

I'm getting the number from here. You aren't including interest or tuition hikes.

dlawrence wrote: Looking at Forbes and USNews, I'm assuming the median starting salary from a T-10 is about $160k. My current total salary depends on stock grants, but on average, this is probably a $30k bump. I'm not sure what effect my technology knowledge or years of management experience has on my potential starting salary, but to be conservative, I'm assuming almost none.

Effectively all biglaw salaries are lockstep so your salary will be 160K. If you are IP eligible (which you might be) it may be slightly higher, but 160K is what you should plan on.
If your effective salary now is $130K, your actual COA without scholarships is $300K + $130K x 3 years = $690K. (!) That's the number you need to be thinking about.

dlawrence wrote: Is it at all reasonable to think that it's possible to get a decent amount of scholarship money and then spend 5-6 years in a big law firm to pay down whatever debt remains and then switch to a more fulfilling practice?

3 years is more reasonable, but, yes, that trajectory is what most biglaw people do. The problem is that those three years are going to be rough, especially if you are wanting to start a family. And you won't be able to pay back your loans in those three years, much less put yourself breakeven given your opportunity cost.

dlawrence wrote: I'm currently taking 16 upper division units and working 50-55 hours a week at my current job. I definitely understand Oregon State is not a T14 law school, but is it crazy to think I can do contract work for 15-20 hours a week (I understand 20 is the max for L1 students) and still do reasonably well in law school? I can pretty easily earn $60-65/hr as a contractor because I know so many of my company's existing products well and they constantly are hiring contractors around that rate. So, if I maybe looked more at Columbia and could get $40k/year and make even $30k/year part time working 10 hours a week, it seems like I could walk away $90k in debt and pay that off working in big law for 3-4 years and then be a little more free to do something I'd prefer.
Do these numbers make sense? Am I wasting my time trying to think through these scenarios and should I just apply, see what happens and then figure it out from there?

Working 20 hours a week as a 1L is categorically a terrible idea. Any money you would make is monumentally less valuable than what you could be doing otherwise with that time.
If this is something you're really, really committed to, it's worth applying and seeing what comes up because right now we're dealing with reasonable but totally speculative figures. If, say, you got a Rubenstein, taking it might not be totally indefensible. I am still convinced that there are no circumstances where going to law school is a financially good decision in your case, but it's better to make that decision with real numbers.

Calculate your total costs. That includes tuition, cost of living, opportunity cost from losing time, etc.

Compare such costs to your benefits. This includes knowledge (something nobody talks about on TLS) and a JD from XYZ Law School. Add any extra intangibles such as personal fulfillment, prestige, pride, etc.

Is it worth it?

Is a JD from Harvard worth $X? That's the question you need to answer for yourself. For me, fuck yes, that's worth it. But for you it may not be.