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Hey all, checking in to see what you guys think of my chances. 173 LSAT with 2.9 UGPA in Chemistry. Suffered depression and eating disorder in college. Have been a pharma chemist for over 6 years with matrix management experience and multiple publications/patents. I am also married with a 3 year old son and a daughter on the way.

With a job, wife, kid and mortgage I committed myself to taking the LSAT in February and got a 168. After realizing how much I wanted this, I studied like crazy, participated in a weight loss challenge, won by losing over 40 lbs, and got a 173.

I can't change my GPA but I want to show the top schools that the man I am today is not the man who settled for Cs in college. I am the man who got a 173 LSAT while being consistently ranked as the top performer in a competitive scientific department of nearly 700 people.

Now that I've poured my heart out to you, TLS community, what are my T14 chances, and how do I get across just how hard I'm willing to work to make this happen?

i think you'll get nu and gulc
maybe w/ $ from nu after you negotiate
probably not enough to justify attending if you're completely debt-financing tho

You may get differing opinions on this, but my view is to absolutely never mention mental illness in an app.

Crowing wrote:You may get differing opinions on this, but my view is to absolutely never mention mental illness in an app.

I agree. You're better off just saying you were a slacker in college and have since then matured (evidenced by job/wife/mortgage/kids/etc.).

My GPA/LSAT was far worse than yours (2.3/167) and I broke into the top-20 schools but not T-14. If I waited another cycle and studied for the LSAT more I probably could have made it into GULC with your LSAT score. That being said, despite my craptastic GPA and LSAT not breaking 170, I had a pretty decent cycle (see profile if you're curious).

If you're planning on leveraging your undergrad degree to do Patent Law though, just be aware, for Engineering/Computer Science people, a bachelor's is enough. For the pure sciences (Bio/Phys/Chem) most employers seem to want an MS/PHD. Your work experience may change that equation though.

if you want to go the IP route, perhaps consider applying ED to the GWU full-tuition scholarship program. GWU has a great IP program...and did i mention the full tuition scholarship part?

http://www.law.gwu.edu/Admissions/apply ... early.aspx

northwestern (which happens to be a splitter-friendly school) also has a similar ED program ($50k/yr scholarship): http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... ision.html

but i don't know if NU is *that* friendly to splitters.

My understanding is that NU isn't going to give the ED full ride to splitters like the OP, but it will admit them, and possibly with some money (so what Brut said).

As for the depression/eating disorder bit - if you don't want to mention mental illness (and I get that argument), don't write something saying you were a slacker and have since matured. That doesn't tell anyone anything useful, and schools will assume that looking at your resume.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:As for the depression/eating disorder bit - if you don't want to mention mental illness (and I get that argument), don't write something saying you were a slacker and have since matured. That doesn't tell anyone anything useful, and schools will assume that looking at your resume.

Not as a personal statement, but some schools require/request an academic addendum, and it would be appropriate there.

There seems to be a growing consensus that you should omit any mention of mental illness. As a splitter with similar numbers, I acknowledged my suffering from depression and ADHD in my application to help explain certain low grades in college, and I ended up getting into Penn. I think I pulled it off because I made sure the rest of my application demonstrated how I have changed for the better since then. My strong PS, LORs, and work experience must have been enough to overcome the doubts spawned by my disclosure of mental illness. I decided to simply tell the truth about the sad parts of my life and emphasize the growth since then.

To me, it sounds like your story can be shaped into a similar narrative centered on positive change. Feel free to pm me if you'd like to know more about my approach.

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I just think the odds of finding someone on the admissions board who is a little paranoid about school shootings is probably pretty high right now. Even if not every admissions officer will hold it against you, it only takes 1 or 2, especially since as a splitter you're being admitted to T-14's by the skin of your teeth.

sunsheyen wrote:

LawwwYeaa wrote:There seems to be a growing consensus that you should omit any mention of mental illness. As a splitter with similar numbers, I acknowledged my suffering from depression and ADHD in my application to help explain certain low grades in college, and I ended up getting into Penn. I think I pulled it off because I made sure the rest of my application demonstrated how I have changed for the better since then. My strong PS, LORs, and work experience must have been enough to overcome the doubts spawned by my disclosure of mental illness. I decided to simply tell the truth about the sad parts of my life and emphasize the growth since then.

To me, it sounds like your story can be shaped into a similar narrative centered on positive change. Feel free to pm me if you'd like to know more about my approach.

After speaking candidly with an admissions dean in the T10, I was encouraged to write about my struggles with M.I., but in his/her words, "very carefully." This is where expert crafting comes in, along with acknowledgement of the issues that face lawyers in general with drugs/m.i. I got very good feedback from admissions at the schools to which I applied about my p.s. I am also available for PM if you would like to know my general strategies.

Right, it's certainly possible to craft a good PS out of mental adversity. But the point is it's very risky. It's hard to strike a balance between mental issues being seen as so trivial that you seem like you are making excuses and so serious that they are going to continue to haunt you. And it's not like there is necessarily a universally perfect balance; different people who read your app are probably going to have different personal thresholds.

Personal statements can certainly be a plus, but they are even more likely to have a negative impact if poorly received. I would stray away from risky topics like this. It's far more likely to hurt you then to provide any appreciable benefit.

ookoshi wrote:I just think the odds of finding someone on the admissions board who is a little paranoid about school shootings is probably pretty high right now. Even if not every admissions officer will hold it against you, it only takes 1 or 2, especially since as a splitter you're being admitted to T-14's by the skin of your teeth.

But someone who has the self-awareness and stability to write about past mental health issues and what they've done to overcome them isn't remotely the kind of person who's going to shoot up a school. For fuck's sake.

I actually suspect most academic administrators are fairly experienced with/savvy about mental health issues in the student population, because they're incredibly common.

I get the argument that writing about mental illness is risky, but I don't agree that it's risky because adcomms will worry that you're going to shoot up the school. I think it's risky more for the reason given above: the fine line between minimizing (and looking like you're making excuses) and maximizing (and looking like you're still having problems). There's also the danger of looking self-pitying or as if you're blaming external forces for issues in your application. It's more the difficulty in writing well about such a subject, rather than scaring people off.

Adcomms probably do worry, in certain contexts, about whether an applicant is going to be able to handle the stresses of law school. But it's more that they'd worry someone would have a relapse of their eating disorder (and possibly do badly/flunk out), not that they think someone is going to go postal - unless there are specific red flags that the applicant in question might have that kind of a problem, which the OP doesn't seem to have.

I agree 100% with nony RE: MI.

As for your chances at a T14, I hada 2.8/176 and I got into UVA, GULC, and NU. NU offered me a scholarship, and I go there now. The admissions office @ NU is amazing and I think if you address your history of MI carefully and tactfully, they will not hold it against you. I would include it in your GPA addendum but in a VERY matter of fact/short manner*, but don't write a PS or anything lengthy about it.

*For example:

"From 2003-2006 I suffered from depression and a severe eating disorder, which negatively impacted my overall GPA. In the 8 years since then, however, I have sought help and moved past both my depression and my eating disorder. I have had a successful career as a pharmaceutical chemist for six years and I do not expect mental illness to be an issue as a law student."

IDK someone can probably help you write something better, that's just off the top of my head, but my point is: don't sound like you're "making excuses," don't wax poetic about your history, and don't write an essay on the subject. Just keep it short and end with the focus on how you've moved on. If there was a reason for the depression (ie a death in the family) I would briefly mention it ("...I suffered from depression after the death of my father, and from a severe eating disorder. This negatively impacted my GPA..."

GULC student here (didn't apply to the other T14 so can't help there, alas). I was not too dissimilar from you: had a 3.3 UGPA and 174 on LSAT, with 6 years of strong working experience. Got in to GULC with no trouble. While GULC likes to pretend at some kind of mysterious black-box system to picking its students, LSAT scores are incredibly important, GPA.... meh? It helps to have a strong GPA when you're coming right out of undergrad, because that's ALL you have to distinguish yourself from the next person. Working experience is very highly regarded at GULC - I know a lot of people in the evening and full-time program who worked a while first before coming to school. I hear that NU is similarly inclined - and from what I hear may even appreciate it even more than GULC.

In either case, chances are good you can make it in to the lower T14, provided you can show that you are likely to do well with a J.D. This involves showing you know what you want to do after graduation, how you work professionally and competently now, and how you'll turn that current competence into strong academic performance.

I wouldn't offer up excuses for the GPA unless prodded for them. Worked for me - I don't think you'll even get asked about it.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:But someone who has the self-awareness and stability to write about past mental health issues and what they've done to overcome them isn't remotely the kind of person who's going to shoot up a school. For fuck's sake.

I agree. However, if we're talking about potentially hundreds of applications that have similar GPA/LSAT scores, you don't think mental health issues breaks ties? Whether it's shooting up a school, having a breakdown and dropping out, or whatever. Plus I think schools these days are hypersensitive to school violence, and have a tendency to see problems that don't exist (like suspending students who drew a picture of a gun).

I actually suspect most academic administrators are fairly experienced with/savvy about mental health issues in the student population, because they're incredibly common.

Again, I agree, but "most" is not "all". Why take the chance?

ookoshi wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:But someone who has the self-awareness and stability to write about past mental health issues and what they've done to overcome them isn't remotely the kind of person who's going to shoot up a school. For fuck's sake.

I agree. However, if we're talking about potentially hundreds of applications that have similar GPA/LSAT scores, you don't think mental health issues breaks ties? Whether it's shooting up a school, having a breakdown and dropping out, or whatever. Plus I think schools these days are hypersensitive to school violence, and have a tendency to see problems that don't exist (like suspending students who drew a picture of a gun).

I didn't say mental health issues wouldn't raise flags or break ties. I'm just saying it's kind of an asshole thoughtless move to equate all mental health issues with the risk of shooting up schools, one that I don't think most adcomms are not going to make. I'm not saying the OP should talk about his/her mental health issues, I'm just saying the concern is not that s/he will bring an AK-47 to school and open fire, and saying that is the concern is just dumb and potentially hurtful.

I think I can also safely say that no college/university, let alone law school, is suspending students for drawing a picture of a gun (that was a middle school).