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I'm not going to say what my June score was but it was my 4th take (first three were 158-161-160 in that order) and I went in feeling way better about the LSAT than ever before and I completely bombed it. I'm shocked at how badly I bombed it but I'm not shocked that I didn't improve because I didn't feel good coming out of it, I sped myself up for no reason in each section, and the guy next to me kept shaking the table whenever he wrote something (which is why I picked a test site in September where I know you get individual desks). Anyway, how bad is that 4th take gonna look? Do I need to improve on my highest score in September to make it look like an outlier? It was way below where I expected to be based on the PTs I took between February and May.

Before anyone tells me "don't go to law school", understand that I don't have any good options as I have a liberal arts degree (albeit from a prestigious undergrad) and I have been working retail jobs since graduation so a $200k gamble if I can sneak into a T14 would be worth it to me regardless of how heavily the odds are stacked against me.

What are my chances for a lower T14 after this retake? Did they go down? Specifically Northwestern as I saw them take multiple URMs this past cycle (I did not apply) with similar URM status and similar numbers (3.4-3.5, 160-62 range). Am I better off applying on Day 1, trying to pitch my (unimpressive) post-grad work experience, interviewing, and hoping I get in, or am I better off getting back to work between now and September and making sure I keep it together on the exam and don't collapse like I did in June and waiting to get my September score back to apply?

Stats- 3.49 GPA, 161 highest LSAT, Puerto Rican male, come from a poor background, seven months of post-grad work experience (retail) with an employment gap between July of last year and February of this year because I couldn't find a decent job.

Didn't someone get a restraining order from a judge against you and file harassment/stalking charges? I think that's a bigger deal than the 4th LSAT.

You keep trying to go to law school; I'm actually beginning to admire the perseverence, as delusional as it may be. If you knock the september exam out of the park, the schools that weren't already offput by taking the test four times won't be offput by 5. In other words, even if you got a 175 you're still out at T5, but Georgetown at least would sink low enough to take you with a shitty 4th take and a respectable 5th one.

Sorry about the disappointing score, seriously. Even though I think you're certifiable, that sucks.

Are you even eligible to retake in September? Aren't you at the limit?

Edit: But yeah, I'd be worried about C&F more than multiple LSATs.

Yea I agree, you're non lsat stuff is probably more troublesome. Vast improvement on your next LSAT would offset stuff, but 5 takes...idk

What C&F stuff? The charge was dismissed as she didn't even show up to court. I could easily get the order expunged (because of certain circumstances that changed) if I wanted to but I won't do that for the time being. And I can explain what happened in one sentence on my C&F addendum.

Honestly, the way I see it is I'm confident I can bump my highest score up a few points in September, I know this June score was a fluke so I'm not worried. I had a really bad day. I'm confused though- Why do I have to get an even higher score now? Am I really going to get blackballed because of all the takes and a clean criminal record?

DaRascal wrote:What C&F stuff? The charge was dismissed as she didn't even show up to court. I could easily get the order expunged (because of certain circumstances that changed) if I wanted to but I won't do that for the time being. And I can explain what happened in one sentence on my C&F addendum.

Honestly, the way I see it is I'm confident I can bump my highest score up a few points in September, I know this June score was a fluke so I'm not worried. I had a really bad day. I'm confused though- Why do I have to get an even higher score now? Am I really going to get blackballed because of all the takes and a clean criminal record?

Why do you need to get a higher score? Because your scores aren't that great for T14, coupled with your GPA. June was a fluke? If you get asked why your other scores aren't more representative than your possibly higher future one, you're gonna have to try and explain more than just it was a fluke.

jbagelboy wrote:even if you got a 175 you're still out at T5

Why do you say that? I've seen a couple of people on here go something like 163/165/174 and get into CCN a cycle later. And at this point, I know HYS will never happen for a number of reasons so any T14 other than Georgetown would be all I could hope for. Why do you think these C&F... issues... are that serious that they'd ruin me like that haha.

DaRascal wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:even if you got a 175 you're still out at T5

Why do you say that? I've seen a couple of people on here go something like 163/165/174 and get into CCN a cycle later. And at this point, I know HYS will never happen for a number of reasons so any T14 other than Georgetown would be all I could hope for. Why do you think these C&F... issues... are that serious that they'd ruin me like that haha.

You have a 3.49 and you'd have 5 LSAT attempts.

Bajam wrote:
Why do you need to get a higher score? Because your scores aren't that great for T14, coupled with your GPA. June was a fluke? If you get asked why your other scores aren't more representative than your possibly higher future one, you're gonna have to try and explain more than just it was a fluke.

Yeah but you always see sub 165 URMs get into the lower T14 schools and it's not like my GPA is a 3.2 or something, it's low, but not awful. I don't see why I can't be one of them with an ED application. All because I have to answer Yes to a question about a charge that was later dismissed?

DaRascal wrote:

Bajam wrote:
Why do you need to get a higher score? Because your scores aren't that great for T14, coupled with your GPA. June was a fluke? If you get asked why your other scores aren't more representative than your possibly higher future one, you're gonna have to try and explain more than just it was a fluke.

Yeah but you always see sub 165 URMs get into the lower T14 schools and it's not like my GPA is a 3.2 or something, it's low, but not awful. I don't see why I can't be one of them with an ED application. All because I have to answer Yes to a question about a charge that was later dismissed?

Also cause there are a bunch of others that don't even have to click that yes. Whether you like it or not, the yes (even though dismissed) is a mark against you.

Bajam wrote: Also cause there are a bunch of others that don't even have to click that yes. Whether you like it or not, the yes (even though dismissed) is a mark against you.

Do you think you are overrating the severity of that C&F issue? In context, it wasn't all that serious and I matured since then. I don't think the effect is as bad as you think. Look at Notre Dame- last year I applied in early November with a 3.6/161 and got waitlisted. I applied again this year in early February with a two page addendum explaining the C&F issue (and I'll be explaining it in two sentences at most in future apps) that wasn't present last year and with a 3rd take that was lower than my highest score and I was waitlisted once again and Notre Dame is a school that values the character of their incoming class more than most other law schools.

DaRascal wrote:

Bajam wrote: Also cause there are a bunch of others that don't even have to click that yes. Whether you like it or not, the yes (even though dismissed) is a mark against you.

Do you think you are overrating the severity of that C&F issue? In context, it wasn't all that serious and I matured since then. I don't think the effect is as bad as you think. Look at Notre Dame- last year I applied in early November with a 3.6/161 and got waitlisted. I applied again this year in early February with a two page addendum explaining the C&F issue (and I'll be explaining it in two sentences at most in future apps) that wasn't present last year and with a 3rd take that was lower than my highest score and I was waitlisted once again and Notre Dame is a school that values the character of their incoming class more than most other law schools.

Idk how you could ever prove the bolded, other than assuming it's true because religion stuff. Idk about overrating your c&f stuff, but more like your numbers aren't super competitive (yet).

The fact that you were wait listed at ND says it all. With that GPA/LSAT and your URM status, you should be an auto admit at ND. I know one non-URM that got into ND with a 3.50/161.

Your restraining order was 6 months ago. You can't argue you've matured any appreciable degree in 6 months.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Your restraining order was 6 months ago. You can't argue you've matured any appreciable degree in 6 months.

Nony dropping some knowledge

ManoftheHour wrote:The fact that you were wait listed at ND says it all. With that GPA/LSAT and your URM status, you should be an auto admit at ND. I know one non-URM that got into ND with a 3.50/161.

I was waitlisted with a higher GPA last year when I had only taken the LSAT twice and had no C&F "issues". And last year I got waitlisted at Duke when other URMs with identical GPA's but higher LSAT scores were rejected. I don't think there's any discernible pattern to URM admissions. You guys are scaring me with all the talk about how my 3.49 and "Yes" to question 7c will make me an auto-reject at the T14 this fall unless I "kill" the LSAT (I would think I only need about 3 more points =/ )

I mean no one said auto reject. I'm not an expert on URM stuff, but are you comparing yourself with all URMS because as far as I know, not all URMs are created equal.

Bajam wrote:

DaRascal wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:even if you got a 175 you're still out at T5

Why do you say that? I've seen a couple of people on here go something like 163/165/174 and get into CCN a cycle later. And at this point, I know HYS will never happen for a number of reasons so any T14 other than Georgetown would be all I could hope for. Why do you think these C&F... issues... are that serious that they'd ruin me like that haha.

You have a 3.49 and you'd have 5 LSAT attempts.

right. you're not getting into HYSCCN because your record is disastrous, c&f aside, and they aren't quite that desperate. You know how we always say schools don't average LSAT scores? well, that's true, they don't. but to say top programs (who still have a lot of candidates to choose from) don't evaluate a candidate based on their record of performance is simply blinding yourself to the reality of your circumstances.

then again, score a 180, get into a top school and prove me wrong. I'd be pleased to see that. I just think it's terrifically unlikely.

idk rascal kind of seems like we're spinning wheels here
i don't doubt your commitment to attend LS, but it might not be the right time

waiting a year or two will give you a chance to figure out how to study properly
and give you some additional takes
you'll have an opportunity to seek some more substantive work experience (i know you think you can't, but are you really trying?)
and you can re-evaluate whether LS is truly your best option
waiting would also give you a chance to engage in some actual self-reflection
and give you distance from your prior c&f issues

if i were in your shoes
i'd start looking for paralegal jobs
do a little volunteer work on the weekends
take a break from the LSAT prep, since what you've been doing clearly isn't working
and revisit the LS question in a year

bagelboy, would you say I'd be better off taking a huge scholarship/full ride at a T1 or T2 than trying to squeeze into the low end of the T14?

Brut wrote: waiting a year or two will give you a chance to figure out how to study properly

I got my highest score with absolutely no studying between my first take and that take. I took it on confidence and I was absolutely determined on that day. I honestly cannot remember any specific questions from this past exam. I'm questioning whether I'm psychologically strong enough for the rigors of law school. I choked on this past exam. Biggest choke job ever and I knew it right after so I'm not all that upset.

DaRascal wrote:bagelboy, would you say I'd be better off taking a huge scholarship/full ride at a T1 or T2 than trying to squeeze into the low end of the T14?

This wasn't addressed to me, but I'm going to stick my nose in: the answer is YES. Go wherever you can get full tuition. I don't like the idea of DaRascal taking out loans for anything greater than COL. There's literally zero evidence in your posting history suggesting that taking out loans for tuition is something you're capable of handling well. That doesn't seem wise.

cron1834 wrote:

DaRascal wrote:bagelboy, would you say I'd be better off taking a huge scholarship/full ride at a T1 or T2 than trying to squeeze into the low end of the T14?

This wasn't addressed to me, but I'm going to stick my nose in: the answer is YES.

I sure hope they don't section stack in the T2...

Watch the stips. Cop full tuition. GL.

cron1834 wrote:Watch the stips. Cop full tuition. GL.

Thanks, my friend. What are some good target schools for me? Wake Forest? Arizona? Florida? I have no regional preference, I just want to go where I can maximize my job prospects at a reasonable discount. When a 164/5 would be a golden score for me but a devastating score for just about everyone who goes to a lower T-14, it makes me wonder if I really have the same level of aptitude as your average T14 student and whether or not it'd be a struggle for me at such a school (before even considering all the pressure the debt would put on me).