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Long-time lurker hoping to get some input from the TLS community on my application strategy this fall.

LSAT/GPA: 17x/3.xx

Softs: Will have 4 years of decent WE at matriculation but otherwise nothing of note.

Goals: Chicago Biglaw -> in-house at financial services company OR financial regulator
NYC biglaw is obviously better than striking out but would very much prefer to stay in Chicago.

Pros for ED UChi:
I feel like there's a definite chance that if I don't ED, I won't get in at all.
I really don't want to strike out at OCI/not get biglaw, and I'm very impressed with Chicago's placement numbers (I believe the most recent data shows something like a little over 80% having 2L SAs - surely some number of those are not biglaw or will get no-offered but I can't imagine that's very many people). Also, as an introvert with pretty mediocre interview skills, I'm afraid that at NU I will feel like an aspie surrounded by extroverts with great professional experience when competing for SA spots, whereas at UChi I would be surrounded by actual aspies and would stand out as being a socially well-adjusted candidate with work experience. Might be putting to much weight on that though.
Also, it seems to me that Chicago firms would go deeper into UChi's class than at NU, and there would be a greater chance that I would be forced to heavily bid NYC at the latter.
Cons for ED UChi:
Probably little to no aid if I get in. COL will be covered though, and I do have some savings, so sticker for me does not mean the soul-crushing debt of 250k+ that some people talk about.

Pros for ED NU:
Possibility of full ride would obviously be pretty awesome.
Cons:
While it looks like a few people with stats in my range have gotten ED, I think it's pretty clear that chances are that I don't get it. In that case, I give up the chance to ED at Chicago, and may end up with neither a Chicago acceptance nor a lot of money at NU.

RD:
Give up advantages of ED at either NU or UChi, apply broadly and see how things play out. Would be able to actually make a decision with real offers instead of just probabilities and hypotheticals.


Thanks in advance for the input! And, more generally, thank you to the TLS community for all the great advice and the insane amount of information on here! I have no idea how people made these decisions before this site was around.

Edit: Forgot to mention - please don't quote. Thanks.

Lady/dude. Money. Money. Money. A 179, even as a splitter, can get you lots of money. Don't ED unless NU announces their ED/fullride renewal. Basically can't beat a full-ride NU JD for Chi biglaw. UChi Ruby but your GPA does preclude that.

According to MYLSN, you're unlikely to get into Chicago regardless, but will almost definitely get Northwestern. I would ED to NU.

edit> assuming they re-up the full ride offer. Otherwise, RD.

Yea ED to NU seems like a pretty great option your a shoe-in for the 150k and you won't get more than that at any school given the 3.5x GPA I think you would maximize your scholarship by choosing that option but you could get 40-90k at other schools ranked 4-11 so it's up to you where you want to work and go to school but if your set on Chicago goodness than NU ED is perfect!

OP, by no means are you a "shoe-in" for the NU ED 150k with a below median GPA. I agree that you should ED to NU given your goals, and I think the scholarship may well be in play. Even so, you should apply broadly beyond NU--and get that application drum-tight.

I kind of assumed that NU would continue the ED full-ride deal. Has there been any indication that this won't be the case?

PrideandGlory1776 wrote:Yea ED to NU seems like a pretty great option your a shoe-in for the 150k

I'm probably a contender but definitely not a shoo-in.

As far as NU w/money v UChi without, obviously, if I had an offer for 150k at NU v an offer at sticker at UChi, that would be an easy choice. But I don't think the difference in offers between the two schools is ever that radical for a single candidate. In my mind, the kind of applicant that would get ED at NU would also get UChi with money. Conversely, if my application doesn't get me an admit at UChi, I probably won't get too much money at NU. I've seen people with differences in offers between the two schools anywhere from $30k to $90k or so. At 30k, I would definitely go to UChi; at 90k, I would have to think about it, but it wouldn't be a definite decision to go to NU either. The reason I put so much weight on better outcomes at UChi is that I have pretty strong preferences for where I want to end up after law school (Chicago, transactional biglaw), so it would be good to have a buffer and not be forced to take whatever biglaw offer I can get. NU is good for Chicago biglaw if you're, what, top 1/3 or so? Otherwise, my understanding is that you pretty much have to go to NYC or strike-out.

Anyway, thanks for the responses so far.

The way you word this makes it seem like you are unclear how ED works. Just to clarify: if you ED NU and get in with the $150k scholarship you don't get to choose between NU and Chicago. You go to NU or you don't go to law school that year.

The same thing applies if you ED Chi. You go to Chi, even if they don't give you any scholarship money.

Binding early decision is no joke.

That said, as long as they continue the ED scholarship program I would ED NU next year. The reason people are saying "if they continue" is because they haven't announced for sure that it will continue. I assume it will, but make sure you double-check before submitting your apps.

ETA: The "aspie Chicago" thing is really oversold here. Granted, I'm headed to UChi in September so I could just be a very oblivious aspie myself, but FWIW I met very few extremely awkward people at ASW. NU on the other hand...
Also Chicago just started the interview program, which to me seems like a way to weed out weirdos and mouth-breathers before they get an acceptance.

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I would ED NU. Don't worry about the difference between classes, 90% will be aspie at just about every school. Seriously.

ED NU, then if you're deferred, obviously, RD Chi.

Ricky-Bobby wrote:The way you word this makes it seem like you are unclear how ED works. Just to clarify: if you ED NU and get in with the $150k scholarship you don't get to choose between NU and Chicago. You go to NU or you don't go to law school that year.

Actually, the contract I signed (NU) made it sound even more serious than "you don't go to law school that year." If you break an early decision contract with a law school, I assume you would be blacklisted at all major universities, and it would probably be a pretty big deal with the bar as well. It's not just a promise, it's a contract. (It probably wouldn't make sense for them to sue you, but they could, I guess.)

w/r/t your situation, it sounds like you would take the 150k at NU if you could get it. Therefore, I don't see any reason why you would RD both schools. I think you should ED NU unless you think EDing Chicago will substantially help your chances and you are willing to pay sticker for the slightly better placement.

(All of this assumes NU continues it's ED scholarship.)

You definitely have the right idea OP. Chicago is tough for splitters who don't ED. But despite that you should still ED NU. The upside is obviously very high, and if you miss it they'll accept you RD and probably give you something close to 2/3 tuition.

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Ricky-Bobby wrote:The way you word this makes it seem like you are unclear how ED works. Just to clarify: if you ED NU and get in with the $150k scholarship you don't get to choose between NU and Chicago. You go to NU or you don't go to law school that year.

The same thing applies if you ED Chi. You go to Chi, even if they don't give you any scholarship money.

Binding early decision is no joke.

No, I'm with you. Sorry if I was being unclear. My reasoning was under the assumption that there's a degree of consistency in the admissions process across schools. So, if, for whatever reason, my application "outperforms my numbers" and I get ED NU, the same magical factor that got me that result would also appeal to the UChicago adcom if I were to apply RD. Given an application that is strong enough to get ED NU, what kind of UChi result is being foregone? But maybe that's not a legitimate assumption - perhaps admissions is much more idiosyncratic, and there's no correlation between outperforming/underperforming one's numbers at different schools.

Mullens wrote:I was faced with an almost identical situation when applying this cycle. I live in Chicago, want Chicago biglaw, have two years WE, and a 3.5x (though a lower LSAT score). I went back and forth on deciding whether to ED NU or not (never seriously considered EDing UChi because I didn't want to pay sticker) and ultimately decided to ED NU. The factors in my decision were that I wanted to stay in Chicago, liked the culture and location of NU more, and didn't think I would be able to come anywhere close to 150k in scholarship money from any T14, let alone UChi. I got in ED at NU and so far have been happy with the decision. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want any deeper thoughts on my decision-making process.

Thanks, Mullens. Will PM you in the near future.

norkanite wrote:

I think it's pretty clear that chances are that I don't get it.

Huh? Why? You're the NU ED prototype. You'll have second thoughts but stick to your guns and you'll realize you made the right choice.

Some people in my LSAT/GPA range have gotten it, but it's a lot of money to give out for someone who's hurting one of your medians.



I expected people to lean NU, but I have to say I'm a little surprised that it's unanimous. I still haven't completely decided which way I'll go, but I'm definitely more inclined to ED NU than before I posted this. It's good to get a bit of a reality check in the form of a reminder on the value of 150k, even if it is from a bunch of strangers on the internet. On the other hand, I still have to convince myself that the superior placement power I might be giving up at UChi is worth it. It really does seem that NYC biglaw associates live an especially intense kind of misery, and even just an increased probability of getting something more tolerable in Chicago might be worth quite a bit.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded!

No, I'm with you. Sorry if I was being unclear. My reasoning was under the assumption that there's a degree of consistency in the admissions process across schools. So, if, for whatever reason, my application "outperforms my numbers" and I get ED NU, the same magical factor that got me that result would also appeal to the UChicago adcom if I were to apply RD. Given an application that is strong enough to get ED NU, what kind of UChi result is being foregone? But maybe that's not a legitimate assumption - perhaps admissions is much more idiosyncratic, and there's no correlation between outperforming/underperforming one's numbers at different schools.

If you were one of the few with your numbers to get into UChi, you most likely would be paying sticker (assuming no URM). If you did ED UChi, you'd definitely be paying sticker. Scholarships generally track numbers pretty closely. The big money is a little bit harder to predict, but that's because not everyone with high scores can get them, not because they're open to a large range of scores. Middling scholarships are almost formulaic.

I expected people to lean NU, but I have to say I'm a little surprised that it's unanimous. I still haven't completely decided which way I'll go, but I'm definitely more inclined to ED NU than before I posted this. It's good to get a bit of a reality check in the form of a reminder on the value of 150k, even if it is from a bunch of strangers on the internet. On the other hand, I still have to convince myself that the superior placement power I might be giving up at UChi is worth it. It really does seem that NYC biglaw associates live an especially intense kind of misery, and even just an increased probability of getting something more tolerable in Chicago might be worth quite a bit.

It's my understanding that UChi primarily makes high-Vault NYC firms easier to get, but that the difference in Chicago between the two is muted. 37% of NU grads last year were working in Illinois vs 29% of UChi grads. Also, 80% of NU grads last year made $100k+, were fed clerking, or were doing Gov/PI. UChi bumps that percentage up a bit, but it's certainly not worth $175k plus interest.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. If ED NU is a full-ride, then we're talking about around a $175k tuition difference, not $150k.

suppy183 wrote: No, I'm with you. Sorry if I was being unclear. My reasoning was under the assumption that there's a degree of consistency in the admissions process across schools. So, if, for whatever reason, my application "outperforms my numbers" and I get ED NU, the same magical factor that got me that result would also appeal to the UChicago adcom if I were to apply RD. Given an application that is strong enough to get ED NU, what kind of UChi result is being foregone? But maybe that's not a legitimate assumption - perhaps admissions is much more idiosyncratic, and there's no correlation between outperforming/underperforming one's numbers at different schools.

I definitely think you're overplaying the formulaic aspect of admissions/finaid. I have seen people on TLS get waitlisted at lower T14's while pulling money from T6's. A lot of times admissions will track with numbers, but I wouldn't throw away a decent chance at a $150k scholly to find out if they will for you.

And I also don't think you're sacrificing much in the way of Chicago biglaw placement by going to NU over UChi. After all, Kirkland is the largest biglaw employer for both schools, and they actually have more NU grads. Granted, this isn't adjusted for class size and NU just recently cut back to ~200-person classes, but that's pretty telling. I'm sure there's a boost at UChi, but it's not worth $150k.

Just saw your update. With no COL and say $15k savings, that's still $185k debt at Chicago. If you're paying that off in 5 years, that's $230k total.

Versus $15k in the bank at NU.

UChi is not worth a quarter of a million dollars more than NU. Especially not for a goal of Chicago biglaw. You aren't going to find anyone on TLS who will tell you that it is. If you forsake EDing NU, you're doing it for the prestige. Plain and simple. Which.. it's your life.. but it's a pretty objectively awful decision.

AND there's certainly no guarantee you'll even get UChi. They love their GPA median. I heard that 1/3 of the C/O 2015 had 4.0+ GPAs [citation needed].

If you ED NU and get held to RD nothing is lost and you might still get Chicago. If you RD NU and don't get Chicago, you're stuck paying a shitload more than you have to (assuming you would've gotten ED).

With a 3.5 it's very unlikely you'll get anywhere even near half tuition at Chicago. You're not likely to get more than 30k.

Definitely ED NU, especially given your goals. There's no difference between Chicago and NU for Chicago biglaw.