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Ren wrote:The title pretty much speaks for itself. I've decided that for me, it has to be T6 or bust. Is it worth it for me to retake in December? Or forget about it and get my apps in ASAP?

Btw... non-URM, decent softs, solid W/E

you are not going to be getting a lot of love in this thread, just fyi

Ren wrote:The title pretty much speaks for itself. I've decided that for me, it has to be T6 or bust. Is it worth it for me to retake in December? Or forget about it and get my apps in ASAP?

Btw... non-URM, decent softs, solid W/E

Unless you want Hamilton consideration or better odds at Yale, then you're probably solid where you are. That said, you could always send in your apps and retake anyway if you think you'll likely improve.

@Marshmallow - I am not trying to be annoying. I know I am very lucky to be in a good place. I just want to figure out which course of action would serve me best.

@Muffin - If I submit now and then retake in December, should I somehow let schools know that I am doing that? Like write an addendum?

... Sorry I am really new to this part of the process!

Ren wrote:@Marshmallow - I am not trying to be annoying. I know I am very lucky to be in a good place. I just want to figure out which course of action would serve me best.

@Muffin - If I submit now and then retake in December, should I somehow let schools know that I am doing that? Like write an addendum?

... Sorry I am really new to this part of the process!

where were you PTing? Was the 172 your first take? you've got a month before December, so you need to think realistically about whether you'll be able to improve. if you think you can, then great, go for it. keep in mind that if you do worse, Yale might not love that. If you decide to retake, you can tell schools to hold your app until you get the new score, and a lot of schools just automatically do that.

Yeah, 172 is my first take. I was PTing in the mid to high 170s range, but I get nervous for exams (which explains the 172 in this case). Maybe you are right... maybe I shouldn't risk a drop. I can't decide!

T6 is a silly designation from a few cycles ago. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you picked up a full ride from several of MVPB and didn't get more than 90k from NYU.

If you really care about lay prestige that much, you will pick up way more girls with a Penn JD than an NYU JD.

You're in at H on down (well, not necessarily S) with big money to most schools. So when you consider it like that, is it worth a retake for Y?

We have identical GPAs btw. I'm retaking in Dec and I'd be absolutely ecstatic with your score.

@twenty - I am not even sure I will be applying to MVPB. It seem vain, but I am pretty set on a T6. Plus I am a (straight) girl, so picking up chicks is not a concern of mine

@otunga- GOOD LUCK! I am rooting for you, we can be number twins =)

I don't think OP is necessarily a lock at H, though looking at LSN I'd be shocking if you weren't at least wait-listed. You'll easily get CCN so you don't really need to worry about getting T6. Retaking is basically for money or YS.

I have really similar numbers to you OP but I'm a URM so I may not be the best person to take advice from in your situation.

@twenty - I am not even sure I will be applying to MVPB. It seem vain, but I am pretty set on a T6. Plus I am a (straight) girl, so picking up chicks is not a concern of mine

I thought twice before I posted, but hit submit anyway.

It's not really even vain, it's just silly since your numbers probably won't qualify you for a full ride at CCN, but will most definitely qualify you for a full ride in the MVPB category. It's absolute madness to turn down Penn with 150k for even Columbia with 90k because there's basically zero difference between the two schools' placement power. Certainly not 60k plus interest's worth.

People say "T6" almost facetiously on TLS because 2-3 years ago, Columbia and NYU were placing into slightly higher echelons of biglaw (i.e, V5 firms rather than V20s), though certainly not increasing anyone's chances of actually getting into biglaw in the first place. That's becoming less and less true -- Chicago was absolutely nailed at this year's OCI for V5s, and last year NYU had some really jaw-droppingly bad placement numbers.

twentypercentmore wrote: People say "T6" almost facetiously on TLS because 2-3 years ago, Columbia and NYU were placing into slightly higher echelons of biglaw (i.e, V5 firms rather than V20s), though certainly not increasing anyone's chances of actually getting into biglaw in the first place. That's becoming less and less true -- Chicago was absolutely nailed at this year's OCI for V5s, and last year NYU had some really jaw-droppingly bad placement numbers.

Are you sure about any of this?

T6 has more to do with LSAT medians than anything, but I'd be curious to know where you came up with the rest of this stuff.

OP I recommend you apply beyond the T6. If you think you can do better on the LSAT go for it.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

twentypercentmore wrote: People say "T6" almost facetiously on TLS because 2-3 years ago, Columbia and NYU were placing into slightly higher echelons of biglaw (i.e, V5 firms rather than V20s), though certainly not increasing anyone's chances of actually getting into biglaw in the first place. That's becoming less and less true -- Chicago was absolutely nailed at this year's OCI for V5s, and last year NYU had some really jaw-droppingly bad placement numbers.

Are you sure about any of this?

T6 has more to do with LSAT medians than anything, but I'd be curious to know where you came up with the rest of this stuff.

OP I recommend you apply beyond the T6. If you think you can do better on the LSAT go for it.

There's fairly concrete data floating around that CCN > everyone else in terms of getting into a top law firm (particularly in NYC). But I'm guessing that's not what you're asking -- more that CCN aren't in a tier of their own for overall biglaw hiring. Chicago has a small enough class pursuing biglaw that anecdotal evidence as a direct comparison to 2011 (where certain markets were ask-and-ye-shall-receive) that Chicago has, unfortunately, had a slightly tougher year. In no way making Chicago a bad decision ITE, of course, just narrowing the gap between Chicago and everyone else.

NYU '11 had a hell of a year -- Penn and Northwestern put 67.1% and 61.3% (respectively) of their graduates in A3 or biglaw, while NYU only put 54% in. A lot of folks speculated that this was because NYU grads traditionally self-select into PI/Govt, but NYU had a considerable jump in school-funded PI without any uptick in corresponding government employment that can't be bought by school funding. Furthermore, the percentage of NYU grads at non-biglaw firms was quite a bit higher for '11 than '10 or '12.

I'll give you NYU 2011. I assumed last year meant 2012. Chicago's 2012 OCI numbers were great and I'll assume 2013 was also great until we see numbers showing otherwise. Law firm addict shows Penn placing right with NYU for V5 and V10 jobs several years back, so I think the difference there might be overstated, at least between Penn and NYU. As to overall biglaw hiring, I'm never going to get on board with places like Michigan and Georgetown placing on par with Columbia and Chicago, but I agree that OP should apply broadly regardless.

i was in your exact position a year ago (3.93/171) with really high PT averages but a nervous/unwell test day. i practiced by taking about 15 practice tests between october and december and ended up with a 178, and i'm really glad that i retook! that's just my personal experience though, and 172 is still really good

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MistakenGenius wrote:

turtles wrote:i was in your exact position a year ago (3.93/171) with really high PT averages but a nervous/unwell test day. i practiced by taking about 15 practice tests between october and december and ended up with a 178, and i'm really glad that i retook! that's just my personal experience though, and 172 is still really good

Really? your profile says really different. As in, a 3.4 and a 170. Odd

lolwut

MistakenGenius wrote:

turtles wrote:i was in your exact position a year ago (3.93/171) with really high PT averages but a nervous/unwell test day. i practiced by taking about 15 practice tests between october and december and ended up with a 178, and i'm really glad that i retook! that's just my personal experience though, and 172 is still really good

Really? your profile says really different. As in, a 3.4 and a 170. Odd

yep you caught me, darn

I have decided not to retake for the time-being and see where my numbers take me, but thank you for the input, everyone!

Twenty, I should have specified, I want to practice exclusively in NYC. I wonder if that changes your outlook (you are successfully making me rethink my decisions btw). From my very limited experience working at a NYC biglaw firm, HYSCCN graduates do have a pretty significant leg up on low-mid T14 graduates. I can probably count on my hands how many MVP associates came through the door this year; on the other hand, CCN (specifically Columbia and NYU) are looked upon very favorably. I wonder if this is just an isolated thing and I should broaden my own outlook though

... PS don't post motivational stories about successful retakes, and then end up being a liar! That's just cruel!

Ren wrote:I have decided not to retake for the time-being and see where my numbers take me, but thank you for the input, everyone!

Twenty, I should have specified, I want to practice exclusively in NYC. I wonder if that changes your outlook (you are successfully making me rethink my decisions btw). From my very limited experience working at a NYC biglaw firm, HYSCCN graduates do have a pretty significant leg up on low-mid T14 graduates. I can probably count on my hands how many MVP associates came through the door this year; on the other hand, CCN (specifically Columbia and NYU) are looked upon very favorably. I wonder if this is just an isolated thing and I should broaden my own outlook though

For what it's worth, I think you're making the right decision and I'm usually a retake fanatic. Your worst case scenario with those numbers is CCN with some cash, which, if your top priority is NYC biglaw, is pretty much the best situation possible. (If I were in your position, I'd go to whichever of CCN gave me the most money, UC included...and a Levy should be extremely tempting.)

Ren wrote:I wonder if this is just an isolated thing and I should broaden my own outlook though

It depends on where you're at -- there's not a lot of question that HYSCCN graduates have a leg up on everyone else in getting spots in the top law firms in NYC, but there's no real overall hiring advantage in that someone from Columbia with identical grades to someone at Penn would get into biglaw, while the Penn grad wouldn't.

I do understand the interest in CCN specifically now, though. Frankly, HYS doesn't even have that much of an advantage on CCN for NYC biglaw hiring, but that's besides the point. If I were in your position, I would absolutely put Penn in the mix here, though I can see an argument for not including UVA, Michigan or Berkeley.