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Jules239 wrote:LSAT: 169
GPA: 3.95

I am highly considering applying to Harvard Law School (my dream school) but my LSAT definitely falls short. I have only taken it once though and I heard that they average scores, which may be to advantage. I'm also bilingual (german), come from a non-traditional background, and am involved on campus (mock trial, phi alpha delta,etc). I have no extraordinary ventures, like a big internship.

I'm applying to a couple other top schools (cornell, duke, vandy) and am really crossing my fingers that I'm a candidate for scholarship money, that is if I get an acceptance obviously.

Any thoughts from people familiar with the admissions process would be greatly appreciated.

Play with this:

http://www.mylsn.info

Also, it's unlikely that HLS uses an applicant's average LSAT in making admissions decisions. They can see them all, but are only required to report your highest score.

Definitely out with your current LSAT. Your softs are meh. Get 173+ and I'd bet on you

Retake.

You should definitely retake.

Retake.

And don't just apply to three or four schools. An important part of the scholarship game is using scholarship offers as leverage in negotiations for more money from your preferred schools.

Retake and enjoy your choice of HYS or CLS with scholly

Retake definitely first of all. I went into my cycle with my highest score being 169, similar GPA, and similar softs. I did apply in mid-late january so that may have hurt me a little.

So here's how my cycle went (schollys are off memory, so take it as is):
YS: Didn't apply
H: Rejected
CCN: WL, Reject
V: WL, 45/yr
P: 30/year
B: Accepted, no scholly
C: around 35/yr
MDNG: Didn't apply
------------------------
UCLA: 45/yr
Texas: I think 20, but with in state
Rest: Basically full

Like someone else said earlier, I would apply to many of the schools for scholarship negotiating causes. Penn went up by 15k/year in my case from initial offer

Thanks guys! I am applying to a lot of other schools, but these are the applications I'm worried about. Retaking doesn't seem plausible for me, as I don't have the time to devote to studying for the Oct. LSAT and it's law school next fall or bust for me. I'll admit I'm a little crushed about HLS, but I'm still going to apply just not with high hopes.

I appreciate your stats hopefullyfuturelaw. If I could fare that well with Vandy I'd be ecstatic.

Jules239 wrote:Thanks guys! I am applying to a lot of other schools, but these are the applications I'm worried about. Retaking doesn't seem plausible for me, as I don't have the time to devote to studying for the Oct. LSAT and it's law school next fall or bust for me. I'll admit I'm a little crushed about HLS, but I'm still going to apply just not with high hopes.

I appreciate your stats hopefullyfuturelaw. If I could fare that well with Vandy I'd be ecstatic.

Why is it law school next year or bust?

You have time. If you don't have time, then make time.

You're throwing away tens of thousands of dollars or a T6, even HYS, acceptance. You seem to still be in school, and I can't imagine what you'd be doing that wouldn't let you put in a few hours a week before the December exam or why you can't take a single year to potentially drastically improve your prospects over a 40 year career. You admitted you have "no extraordinary ventures, like a big internship" and being involved in a bunch of on-campus activities isn't worth even a point on the LSAT at your current score.

Retake or retake are the only options. I know it sucks, but its going to suck not going to the school of your dreams because you were too lazy to retake. There is almost nothing in this world that should stop you from retaking.

Well tmi, but "non-traditional family" for me means I have no family. I can't take off a year of school because I'd be homeless. I could study for the Oct. or Dec. LSAT, but I don't have the massive amount of time it would take to get 170+ so I would be risking getting a lower score. I kinda just wanted to know my prospects at HLS, but I still consider myself lucky to be in the playing field of some of the other major schools.

If anybody else has similar stats and has applied, I would still love to hear your experiences.

Jules239 wrote:Well tmi, but "non-traditional family" for me means I have no family. I can't take off a year of school because I'd be homeless. I could study for the Oct. or Dec. LSAT, but I don't have the massive amount of time it would take to get 170+ so I would be risking getting a lower score. I kinda just wanted to know my prospects at HLS, but I still consider myself lucky to be in the playing field of some of the other major schools.

If anybody else has similar stats and has applied, I would still love to hear your experiences.

Why would you be homeless dude? Do you have a job? If not, can you get a job after you graduate and then study up for next October during the summer? You should get some work experience anyway.

There were 169/3.9+ admits at H this year. Its incredibly unlikely but not unheard of

jbagelboy wrote:There were 169/3.9+ admits at H this year. Its incredibly unlikely but not unheard of

Possibly URMs.

Plenty of people from low income backgrounds or with no assistance from home graduate college every year. The vast majority of them (to the best of my knowledge) are not homeless.

This is generally because the recent graduates find employment, where, in exchange for their time, they receive currency, which they then exchange for permanent or semi-permanent shelter.

I would like to think you could also pull this off, especially with that shiny 3.95.

Get job > retake LSAT > get into HLS > profit

dowu wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:There were 169/3.9+ admits at H this year. Its incredibly unlikely but not unheard of

Possibly URMs.

No -- regular admits w/ above median GPAs and great softs.

jbagelboy wrote:

dowu wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:There were 169/3.9+ admits at H this year. Its incredibly unlikely but not unheard of

Possibly URMs.

No -- regular admits w/ above median GPAs and great softs.

I'm pretty much out of the loop, but when I was applying to LS, someone with a 169 (IIRC) who was not a URM would be WLd at H.

dowu wrote:I'm pretty much out of the loop, but when I was applying to LS, someone with a 169 (IIRC) who was not a URM would be WLd at H.

I think the point is that admissions have changed fairly significantly in the last year or so because of the drop in applicants.

Jules239 wrote:Well tmi, but "non-traditional family" for me means I have no family. I can't take off a year of school because I'd be homeless. I could study for the Oct. or Dec. LSAT, but I don't have the massive amount of time it would take to get 170+ so I would be risking getting a lower score. I kinda just wanted to know my prospects at HLS, but I still consider myself lucky to be in the playing field of some of the other major schools.

If anybody else has similar stats and has applied, I would still love to hear your experiences.

Ah, that's a tough situation to be in.

The thing is, if you get a lower score it's not going to matter for any schools outside of HYS (and even the "averaging" CW for HYS is in dispute after the recent drops in applicants). So worst case scenario you maintain your current options. But even the average retake score increase of 2-3 points would be huge at your level.

What I would do is go through the Vault Law Firm rankings, go to the websites, and apply for paralegal jobs at big and mid-sized law firms in cities you'd want to live in. They hire people directly from UG. Put your LSAT score and GPA in your application and say in the cover letter you want to eventually go to law school. These large firms usually require a 2 year commitment, but they pay a high enough base salary to get an apartment and live independently. With overtime, you can even make around 75K which is great for someone with a liberal arts degree. You can study on your downtime and retake.

This is such a common path to as T14 as to be a cliche. Outside of K-JD it was the most common path for people at my law school.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

dowu wrote:I'm pretty much out of the loop, but when I was applying to LS, someone with a 169 (IIRC) who was not a URM would be WLd at H.

I think the point is that admissions have changed fairly significantly in the last year or so because of the drop in applicants.

Yeah, but less so at the top schools.

Hmm. Well, it scares me to put myself in a position where I start feeling "comfortable". It's hard to go from making a regular salary to indebting oneself at the rate of an annual salary. Regardless, I'd be putting my law school goals on hold. I'm not ruling that option out, though. If this round of admissions doesn't go well for me, I will definitely consider that route. As it stands though, these are going to be my stats for this admissions period.

Jules239 wrote:Hmm. Well, it scares me to put myself in a position where I start feeling "comfortable". It's hard to go from making a regular salary to indebting oneself at the rate of an annual salary. Regardless, I'd be putting my law school goals on hold. I'm not ruling that option out, though. If this round of admissions doesn't go well for me, I will definitely consider that route. As it stands though, these are going to be my stats for this admissions period.

I loled

Jules239 wrote:Hmm. Well, it scares me to put myself in a position where I start feeling "comfortable". It's hard to go from making a regular salary to indebting oneself at the rate of an annual salary. Regardless, I'd be putting my law school goals on hold. I'm not ruling that option out, though. If this round of admissions doesn't go well for me, I will definitely consider that route. As it stands though, these are going to be my stats for this admissions period.

Don't think of it like that, because the many other people doing a 2 year stretch at a large law firm with the intent to go to law school don't. Think of it as the second or third step in your legal career (after getting a GPA, which you've already done, and a good LSAT). You'll be able to (1) see what large law firms do and whether it's a good place for you, (2) save $$$ to defer some of the cost of law school, (3) make connections that might help you get a job there, although without the right school/grades that's a long shot.

Honestly, you're giving up a huge amount of scholarship money or the potential to vastly increase your career prospects. That GPA is a gem. A decent bump could get you half off at a T6 (or into Stanford), instead of in the tough position of paying 300K for a lower T14 or attending a T25 with a much different class of job prospects.

Sidenote: A lot of law graduates take "temporary" jobs for a year or two after law school at a much lower pay rate then they might otherwise get. They're called clerkships, and you take them because even though you aren't making 160K down the street like your friends at X Biglaw firm (especially with six-figures in loans), getting a good foundation for a 40 year career is more important than a couple of years of even much higher salary. I'm one of those lawyers, and yeah, it's going to suck to switch jobs after a year and start somewhere new. But it's better in the long run. In fact, a few points on the LSAT could put you in the enviable position of choosing between a prestigious clerkship and 160K job instead of a 75K insurance defense job vs a 45K ADA job.