174 (2nd retake), 3.88 Forum

[mk87]

I know this is unusual, but I am the user's SO. I will be relocating with him when he attends law school (I imagine, since we live in LA). I'm not as familiar with the application process, and my boyfriend is modest, so I have a couple questions.

First of all, thank you TLS posters who encouraged him to suck it up and give the LSAT a final go. He was able to raise his schore from a 163 to a 174, and could not be more thrilled. He had a good cycle with his 163 and was choosing between UCLA ($$) and UPenn when the June score arrived. I think that his statement and letters are strong, and he's been working as a paralegal for going on 3 years. Now I'm wondering (in your opinion)...

-What are his chances at H Y and S?
--I've read that H Y and S give need-based rather than merit-based scholarships. Can anyone tell me a little more about them? How low does your income need to be? Do people ever share how much they are offered from these schools?
-What are his chances at UChicago, Berkeley, and Northwestern?
--Do you think he'll get substantial scholarship offerings?
-I wouldn't be thrilled to live in Boston or New Haven for 3 years (though I would be thrilled for him to go to those schools). What do you think is a reasonable amount of money from schools ranked 4-7 or 7-12 to justify turning down a HYS?

I know I've asked a lot of questions that don't have correct answers, but I'm starting to get very curious about where I might be living and working next year. I also am so strongly wishing to move to Northern CA or go back home to Chicago. I want to be realistic about what these opportunities mean to him, so that I don't let my biases pressure him to make a poor choice. Thanks!

[NoodleyOne]

He's close to a lock for everything but YS. Depending on softs, YS are in play and definitely worth the app. Also, with a 163 he was between UCLA with money and UPenn at sticker? Is he URM? He'll get some huge schollys, including some full rides from the T-14.

[mk87]

He's close to a lock for everything but YS. Depending on softs, YS are in play and definitely worth the app. Also, with a 163 he was between UCLA with money and UPenn at sticker? Is he URM? He'll get some huge schollys, including some full rides from the T-14.

Thank you! He's not URM. I think those offers resulted from his softs.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

This is an interesting set of numbers, within a T6 context. The numbers are high enough that every school is solidly in play, but not high enough that any money is a sure bet, which is a fairly rare occurrence. Softs and the luck of the draw will be significantly more important here than normal. $$$ are in play from Chicago on down, but with these numbers it's extraordinarily hard to speculate. If $$$ is the goal, apply broadly and see what happens. Harvard is likely, but it would not be surprising to see a WL, especially if the SO comes from a lesser-known UG. Yale and Stanford will be as dependent on softs as they always are.

[jbagelboy]

This is an interesting set of numbers, within a T6 context. The numbers are high enough that every school is solidly in play, but not high enough that any money is a sure bet, which is a fairly rare occurrence. Softs and the luck of the draw will be significantly more important here than normal. $$$ are in play from Chicago on down, but with these numbers it's extraordinarily hard to speculate. If $$$ is the goal, apply broadly and see what happens. Harvard is likely, but it would not be surprising to see a WL, especially if the SO comes from a lesser-known UG. Yale and Stanford will be as dependent on softs as they always are.

Basically this. Theres a very slim chance of a Butler (half tuition) scholarship at CLS. Also, anticipate a YP waitlist from UVA and Penn without very compelling "why x" essays, especially since penn was turned down this cycle once already.

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt. I think most middle class families would get small grants in the $5-15K range. You should expect sticker though, and if need based comes through, then its just icing on the cake.

[mk87]

This is an interesting set of numbers, within a T6 context. The numbers are high enough that every school is solidly in play, but not high enough that any money is a sure bet, which is a fairly rare occurrence. Softs and the luck of the draw will be significantly more important here than normal. $$$ are in play from Chicago on down, but with these numbers it's extraordinarily hard to speculate. If $$$ is the goal, apply broadly and see what happens. Harvard is likely, but it would not be surprising to see a WL, especially if the SO comes from a lesser-known UG. Yale and Stanford will be as dependent on softs as they always are.

Basically this. Theres a very slim chance of a Butler (half tuition) scholarship at CLS. Also, anticipate a YP waitlist from UVA and Penn without very compelling "why x" essays, especially since penn was turned down this cycle once already.

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt. I think most middle class families would get small grants in the $5-15K range. You should expect sticker though, and if need based comes through, then its just icing on the cake.

These responses are helpful, thank you both.

[Ti Malice]

First of all, thank you TLS posters who encouraged him to suck it up and give the LSAT a final go. He was able to raise his schore from a 163 to a 174, and could not be more thrilled.

That's awesome! Please encourage him to come back and post his retake success story when next cycle is finished. It helps the cause if we have a good number of real success stories to share with folks resistant to retaking.

-What are his chances at H Y and S?

Presuming no glaring weaknesses in his app (which this cycle's results appear to confirm) and a decent interview with one of the Harvard admissions people, his chances for H are quite strong. Everyone with numbers in his immediate range on LSN got into H last cycle, and the applicant pool is only going to contract further next year, making his numbers an even more valuable commodity. And, of course, it sounds like the rest of his app will be a plus for him.

As others have already said, Y and S are very unpredictable. Crucially for Y, he's above rather than at the LSAT median. If he had a 173, he would essentially have no shot at all. Based strictly on his numbers, his chances at Y are around 30-35%. If the rest of his app is as strong for him at Y as it was with Penn and UCLA, his chances will be better. Recommendations are very important at Y (and almost nowhere else, except S and Berkeley). If those are particularly strong (two exceptional LORs are better than those same two LORs plus one or two less exceptional LORs, by the way), that will be something else significantly in his favor. It goes without saying that the PS and the 250 have to be outstanding. Despite S's much lower medians, his chances for outright acceptance there are about the same as they are at Y. However, his odds of being WL'd instead of rejected outright are considerably higher at S than at Y, and S has had decent movement on the WL in some years.

I've read that H Y and S give need-based rather than merit-based scholarships. Can anyone tell me a little more about them? How low does your income need to be? Do people ever share how much they are offered from these schools?

The need-based aid from all three can be very generous. How much he qualifies for will depend upon his total assets and his age (which will determine how much his family's financial assets figure into the calculations). Does he have substantial savings from his job? You're basically required to apply most of your financial assets toward the cost of law school. If he's not that far from having no savings that he can apply toward tuition, then he could get very significant need-based scholarship money (again, depending upon age and parental wealth). Need is reevaluated each year, so if he ends up with nothing left for his 2L year, he could get a much bigger grant then than he did for his 1L year.

-What are his chances at UChicago, Berkeley, and Northwestern?

Chicago is a bit strange. People with much lower numbers get in, but a good number of people in his range also get waitlisted. With Chicago, it's not exactly the case that your odds of outright acceptance increase with your numbers in linear fashion. Some pockets of higher-number combinations seem disfavored over some lower-number combinations, for reasons I can't discern.

Berkeley is one of the three schools where numbers are least predictive of admissions outcomes (the other two being Y and S). They routinely reject people with his numbers and with higher numbers. His odds there are probably ~67%. Also bear in mind that Berkeley is quite stingy with scholarship money relative to most other top schools.

He's essentially a lock at NU by regular decision, almost assuredly with their $150K scholarship. If he applied ED -- which comes with the $150K grant at NU -- he would get it. That's attractive, but I wouldn't tie myself to an ED app at Northwestern with those numbers.

--Do you think he'll get substantial scholarship offerings?

Yes. As others have said, scholarships are an unpredictable business. No set of numbers guarantees you anything (except those numbers essentially guarantee an ED acceptance and $150K scholarship at NU). But with his numbers, he will almost certainly pick up a full ride or two in the lower T14 (the non-YHSCCN T14), possibly more, and he'll be in the running for big money at CCN as well.

-I wouldn't be thrilled to live in Boston or New Haven for 3 years (though I would be thrilled for him to go to those schools). What do you think is a reasonable amount of money from schools ranked 4-7 or 7-12 to justify turning down a HYS?

It really depends upon his goals. If he's gunning strictly for BigLaw, then it would not be unreasonable to take a full scholarship from any of the T13 over sticker at YHS. (I'd be much more hesitant with GULC, personally.) For CCN and P, I think passing up a full scholarship for YHS at sticker when your sole goal is BigLaw is actually the unreasonable move. All of these schools have terrific BigLaw placement power, and life with $185-215K less debt at the start of repayment (assuming sticker at YHS) would make for a much happier and less stressful existence. (By the way, I see that you wrote "7-12," but just know that Cornell places just as well in BigLaw as almost all of the other schools in the lower T13. Even if you guys would never live in Ithaca, he should still apply just to possibly have a huge scholarship as a bargaining chip with other schools.)

On the other hand, if he has more than a passing interest in high-end public interest work (ACLU, HRW, etc.), elite government jobs (DOJ, SEC, etc.), federal clerkships, or legal academia, YHS (especially Y) will provide anywhere from a strong to overwhelming advantage over any other schools. YHS also have the best loan repayment assistance programs, meaning that if he does end up taking lower-paying work, the schools will pay back most or all of his loans over a 10-year period. With Yale's LRAP (COAP), you don't even have to work as a lawyer at all to participate in the program. The LRAPs at CCN will be very good but not as amazing as at YHS, and the lower T14 will range from good to not really that good (too many restrictions and conditions).

I hope this is helpful!

_______________________

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt.

Hey jbagelboy, things don't have to be quite that dire in order to get huge scholarships. YLS will give me more than $100K during my time here, and I came to law school with zero debt. I'm old enough that my family's finances have no impact, and my PI-oriented work before law school didn't allow for both enjoying life and accumulating significant savings together (so I largely chose the former).

[tirakon]

I was accepted at all three of HYS with your exact numbers, K-JD. You are in great shape. Good luck!

[Ti Malice]

I was accepted at all three of HYS with your exact numbers, K-JD. You are in great shape. Good luck!

You said before that you had unusually good softs, so you're not exactly representative. He's in great shape as far as H is concerned, but Y and S involve much longer odds.

[ManOfTheMinute]

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt.

Hey jbagelboy, things don't have to be quite that dire in order to get huge scholarships. YLS will give me more than $100K during my time here, and I came to law school with zero debt. I'm old enough that my family's finances have no impact, and my PI-oriented work before law school didn't allow for both enjoying life and accumulating significant savings together (so I largely chose the former).

This is where the money is... if your SO is over 27 when he matriculate, his parents' money isn't going to count against you. If your SO is under 27 and his parents have saved money/lived frugally their whole lives (regardless of whether or not they are going to help pay for law school), he is going to get very little financial aid (read $10K on a super good day) - the brilliance of law school financial aid.

[tirakon]

I was accepted at all three of HYS with your exact numbers, K-JD. You are in great shape. Good luck!

You said before that you had unusually good softs, so you're not exactly representative. He's in great shape as far as H is concerned, but Y and S involve much longer odds.

That's why I said he's in great shape, not a lock.

His numbers are where they need to be, and the OP has indicated he has strong softs.

[Ti Malice]

I was accepted at all three of HYS with your exact numbers, K-JD. You are in great shape. Good luck!

You said before that you had unusually good softs, so you're not exactly representative. He's in great shape as far as H is concerned, but Y and S involve much longer odds.

That's why I said he's in great shape, not a lock.

His numbers are where they need to be, and the OP has indicated he has strong softs.

Well, I suppose there's little need for a semantic dispute. "Great shape" is a fairly pliable and ambiguous description in this context, and it appears that we've chosen to assign it somewhat different meanings.

[jbagelboy]

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt.

Hey jbagelboy, things don't have to be quite that dire in order to get huge scholarships. YLS will give me more than $100K during my time here, and I came to law school with zero debt. I'm old enough that my family's finances have no impact, and my PI-oriented work before law school didn't allow for both enjoying life and accumulating significant savings together (so I largely chose the former).

This is where the money is... if your SO is over 27 when he matriculate, his parents' money isn't going to count against you. If your SO is under 27 and his parents have saved money/lived frugally their whole lives (regardless of whether or not they are going to help pay for law school), he is going to get very little financial aid (read $10K on a super good day) - the brilliance of law school financial aid.

Yes -- I was assuming continued dependent consideration.

Of course Malice is right. Yale can be very generous for independent adults.

[MAHamlin]

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt.

Hey jbagelboy, things don't have to be quite that dire in order to get huge scholarships. YLS will give me more than $100K during my time here, and I came to law school with zero debt. I'm old enough that my family's finances have no impact, and my PI-oriented work before law school didn't allow for both enjoying life and accumulating significant savings together (so I largely chose the former).

This is where the money is... if your SO is over 27 when he matriculate, his parents' money isn't going to count against you. If your SO is under 27 and his parents have saved money/lived frugally their whole lives (regardless of whether or not they are going to help pay for law school), he is going to get very little financial aid (read $10K on a super good day) - the brilliance of law school financial aid.

+1 I am old enough that parental contributions were not considered and I can confirm that HLS is very generous in these instances. Their award process is relatively transparent, as well. If you go to http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... index.html you should be able to get a good idea of what type of award you would receive. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

ETA: I thought the age cut off for parental contributions was 29. At least I think that is the case for HLS. It starts to scale back at 27, though. Mind you, this is shooting from the hip so I could be way off.

[mk87]

First of all, thank you TLS posters who encouraged him to suck it up and give the LSAT a final go. He was able to raise his schore from a 163 to a 174, and could not be more thrilled.

That's awesome! Please encourage him to come back and post his retake success story when next cycle is finished. It helps the cause if we have a good number of real success stories to share with folks resistant to retaking.

-What are his chances at H Y and S?.....

Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate all of the clarification and advice that you provided. I'll make sure that he posts his re-take story when he gets his 2013-2014 results.

[mk87]

As for needbased at HYS: it can range up to an extremely generous: $28-30K/year for individuals (and around $35K for families). Obviously this is for EFC = 0, very low income people with prior debt.

Hey jbagelboy, things don't have to be quite that dire in order to get huge scholarships. YLS will give me more than $100K during my time here, and I came to law school with zero debt. I'm old enough that my family's finances have no impact, and my PI-oriented work before law school didn't allow for both enjoying life and accumulating significant savings together (so I largely chose the former).

This is where the money is... if your SO is over 27 when he matriculate, his parents' money isn't going to count against you. If your SO is under 27 and his parents have saved money/lived frugally their whole lives (regardless of whether or not they are going to help pay for law school), he is going to get very little financial aid (read $10K on a super good day) - the brilliance of law school financial aid.

My SO will be about 3 weeks away from 27 when he matriculates, and his parents are upper middle class. Very funny to think that their money would be considered, since we've been on our own since college, but I get it. Thanks for the info!

[mk87]

+1 I am old enough that parental contributions were not considered and I can confirm that HLS is very generous in these instances. Their award process is relatively transparent, as well. If you go to http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... index.html you should be able to get a good idea of what type of award you would receive. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

ETA: I thought the age cut off for parental contributions was 29. At least I think that is the case for HLS. It starts to scale back at 27, though. Mind you, this is shooting from the hip so I could be way off.

Thanks for sharing that link. As I just stated, my SO will turn 27 the first week of Sept. just shortly after starting school. I see that the cut off for Harvard seems to be Sept. 1, so that is quite unfortunate. I'm going to PM you to ask when you received your financial assistance offer from HLS.

[Lavitz]

I know this is unusual, but I am the user's SO. I will be relocating with him when he attends law school (I imagine, since we live in LA). I'm not as familiar with the application process, and my boyfriend is modest, so I have a couple questions.

First of all, thank you TLS posters who encouraged him to suck it up and give the LSAT a final go. He was able to raise his schore from a 163 to a 174, and could not be more thrilled. He had a good cycle with his 163 and was choosing between UCLA ($$) and UPenn when the June score arrived.

Wow. I remember the original thread. I'm glad he retook.

-I wouldn't be thrilled to live in Boston or New Haven for 3 years (though I would be thrilled for him to go to those schools). What do you think is a reasonable amount of money from schools ranked 4-7 or 7-12 to justify turning down a HYS?

It really depends upon his goals. If he's gunning strictly for BigLaw, then it would not be unreasonable to take a full scholarship from any of the T13 over sticker at YHS. (I'd be much more hesitant with GULC, personally.) For CCN and P, I think passing up a full scholarship for YHS at sticker when your sole goal is BigLaw is actually the unreasonable move. All of these schools have terrific BigLaw placement power, and life with $185-215K less debt at the start of repayment (assuming sticker at YHS) would make for a much happier and less stressful existence. (By the way, I see that you wrote "7-12," but just know that Cornell places just as well in BigLaw as almost all of the other schools in the lower T13. Even if you guys would never live in Ithaca, he should still apply just to possibly have a huge scholarship as a bargaining chip with other schools.)

Was going to point this out but I see you already covered it. For what it's worth, my primary goal is NYC Biglaw and I was strongly considering choosing $150K at Cornell over sticker at Harvard (before Harvard made it easy for me by cutting me from the waitlist). We also have just as good CA placement as the other lower T-14s in my opinion. But in OP's case, I can understand why they may not want to live in Ithaca since it can be more difficult for spouses to find work than in a larger metropolitan area.

Also, I expect chances at Chicago to be a bit better than in the last few cycles. Without the Ruby in play, I imagine they won't be able to keep up that 3.9 GPA median--if they even managed to this cycle. So OP's number's should be more appealing. But perhaps this is wishful thinking.

Harvard is likely, but it would not be surprising to see a WL, especially if the SO comes from a lesser-known UG. Yale and Stanford will be as dependent on softs as they always are.

Yeah, I think OP is in at Harvard, UG notwithstanding. Their GPA median last cycle was 3.88, and I knew a few people from lesser-known undergrads got pulled off the waitlist because they were above both medians. Combine that with the continuing decrease in apps and the OP overperforming his numbers this cycle and I think you've got a very likely Harvard acceptance.

[mk87]

First of all, thank you TLS posters who encouraged him to suck it up and give the LSAT a final go. He was able to raise his schore from a 163 to a 174, and could not be more thrilled. He had a good cycle with his 163 and was choosing between UCLA ($$) and UPenn when the June score arrived.

Wow. I remember the original thread. I'm glad he retook.

-I wouldn't be thrilled to live in Boston or New Haven for 3 years (though I would be thrilled for him to go to those schools). What do you think is a reasonable amount of money from schools ranked 4-7 or 7-12 to justify turning down a HYS?

It really depends upon his goals. If he's gunning strictly for BigLaw, then it would not be unreasonable to take a full scholarship from any of the T13 over sticker at YHS. (I'd be much more hesitant with GULC, personally.) For CCN and P, I think passing up a full scholarship for YHS at sticker when your sole goal is BigLaw is actually the unreasonable move. All of these schools have terrific BigLaw placement power, and life with $185-215K less debt at the start of repayment (assuming sticker at YHS) would make for a much happier and less stressful existence. (By the way, I see that you wrote "7-12," but just know that Cornell places just as well in BigLaw as almost all of the other schools in the lower T13. Even if you guys would never live in Ithaca, he should still apply just to possibly have a huge scholarship as a bargaining chip with other schools.)

Was going to point this out but I see you already covered it. For what it's worth, my primary goal is NYC Biglaw and I was strongly considering choosing $150K at Cornell over sticker at Harvard (before Harvard made it easy for me by cutting me from the waitlist). We also have just as good CA placement as the other lower T-14s in my opinion. But in OP's case, I can understand why they may not want to live in Ithaca since it can be more difficult for spouses to find work than in a larger metropolitan area.

Also, I expect chances at Chicago to be a bit better than in the last few cycles. Without the Ruby in play, I imagine they won't be able to keep up that 3.9 GPA median--if they even managed to this cycle. So OP's number's should be more appealing. But perhaps this is wishful thinking.

Harvard is likely, but it would not be surprising to see a WL, especially if the SO comes from a lesser-known UG. Yale and Stanford will be as dependent on softs as they always are.

Yeah, I think OP is in at Harvard, UG notwithstanding. Their GPA median last cycle was 3.88, and I knew a few people from lesser-known undergrads got pulled off the waitlist because they were above both medians. Combine that with the continuing decrease in apps and the OP overperforming his numbers this cycle and I think you've got a very likely Harvard acceptance.

Thank you! He went to UG in the midwest, at a higher-quality (academically speaking) Big 10. We are very excited for this cycle.