Top Law Schools

edited.

/

hoos89 wrote:Honestly it is way too early to even be thinking about YLS. Going to low ranking schools does not effect your chances at the vast majority of schools except Berkeley, and perhaps YLS. But YLS is ultra-competitive and 4.0/180 from a top school is not an absolute guarantee on admission. Don't transfer schools just because you think it will help you with YLS, and don't assume your'e going to score in the 170s. Honestly, it is way, way harder to get a very high GPA at a top-ranked school and most people would be better off staying at the lower ranked school if law school is their end goal.

Ok, what?

Most good schools have massive grade inflation. Lot of the low ranking schools you're thinking of still have gpa averages around 2.9-3.0 compared to some top undergrads sitting at 3.5+

I'm curious about the boalt comment too. Going to HYPS helps more at berkeley than other law schools? Never heard this before.

The forum can be a little hard to navigate at first, but this is a topic that's come up a lot. You can check out the posts below (which I did NOT compile, just quoting someone else who did):

Kurst wrote:Does your undergrad school matter? Can it help an applicant?
Does your undergraduate institution matter?
Importance of undergrade prestige for T14?
3.0 from Dartmouth versus 3.0 from state school
Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?
Any T14 students here started at community college for UG?
Do T14's look down on community colleges?
It doesn't matter where you went for UG!
What Undergraduate School should I pick to help my LS Admiss
Should I Transfer Undergraduate Schools?
High numbers, low undergrad prestigue
Does the undergraduate school matter?
Undergraduate Advice
How much does your undergraduate Institution Matter?
How important is undergrad prestige?
Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?
Does Undergraduate School Matter?
to what degree does undergraduate institution matter at HYS?
does undergrad matter at all?
Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?
How much does UG matter?
College Freshman looking at Law School
178 LSAT, 3.93 GPA - Does UG really matter?
Importance of Undergrad Institution
Unknown Undergraduate Institution
Weight of UG institution in LS+ Big Law
UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype
Will undergrad prestige matter?
Does undergraduate school matter?
Does where you went Undergraduate matter?
does your undergrad university prestige matter?
How much does undergrad school matter?
Does your undergraduate school matter?
Does Undergraduate School Matter?
Does the Undergrad School you graduate from matter?
Does school matter?
Undergrad Prestige
snob appeal of your undergraduate institution
Question about GPA major and school prestige
Is UG prestige a factor in the admission process?
OS Updates: Yes, Virginia, Undergraduate Schools Matter.
How much does where you went to undergrad matter?
Why does quality of undergrad matter so little?
How much does where you did undergrad matter?
How much does what undergrad school you attend matter?
Undergrad doesn't matter! (unless it's a good one)
Does undergrad matter
Quality of undergrad institution does matter!
Does undergrad matter?
Undergrad doesnt matter? WSJ disagrees.
Name of Undergrad School Matter in Applying?
How much weight is given to your undergrad college?
Importance of Undergraduate University??
Does it matter where you do your UG studies for T14 schools?
Does quality of undergrad make a significant difference?
Does UG Really Not Matter?
How much does where you went for UG factor in?

/

A. Nony Mouse wrote:The forum can be a little hard to navigate at first, but this is a topic that's come up a lot. You can check out the posts below (which I did NOT compile, just quoting someone else who did):

Kurst wrote:Does your undergrad school matter? Can it help an applicant?
Does your undergraduate institution matter?
Importance of undergrade prestige for T14?
3.0 from Dartmouth versus 3.0 from state school
Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?
Any T14 students here started at community college for UG?
Do T14's look down on community colleges?
It doesn't matter where you went for UG!
What Undergraduate School should I pick to help my LS Admiss
Should I Transfer Undergraduate Schools?
High numbers, low undergrad prestigue
Does the undergraduate school matter?
Undergraduate Advice
How much does your undergraduate Institution Matter?
How important is undergrad prestige?
Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?
Does Undergraduate School Matter?
to what degree does undergraduate institution matter at HYS?
does undergrad matter at all?
Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?
How much does UG matter?
College Freshman looking at Law School
178 LSAT, 3.93 GPA - Does UG really matter?
Importance of Undergrad Institution
Unknown Undergraduate Institution
Weight of UG institution in LS+ Big Law
UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype
Will undergrad prestige matter?
Does undergraduate school matter?
Does where you went Undergraduate matter?
does your undergrad university prestige matter?
How much does undergrad school matter?
Does your undergraduate school matter?
Does Undergraduate School Matter?
Does the Undergrad School you graduate from matter?
Does school matter?
Undergrad Prestige
snob appeal of your undergraduate institution
Question about GPA major and school prestige
Is UG prestige a factor in the admission process?
OS Updates: Yes, Virginia, Undergraduate Schools Matter.
How much does where you went to undergrad matter?
Why does quality of undergrad matter so little?
How much does where you did undergrad matter?
How much does what undergrad school you attend matter?
Undergrad doesn't matter! (unless it's a good one)
Does undergrad matter
Quality of undergrad institution does matter!
Does undergrad matter?
Undergrad doesnt matter? WSJ disagrees.
Name of Undergrad School Matter in Applying?
How much weight is given to your undergrad college?
Importance of Undergraduate University??
Does it matter where you do your UG studies for T14 schools?
Does quality of undergrad make a significant difference?
Does UG Really Not Matter?
How much does where you went for UG factor in?

Thanks a lot for your help I will do some digging in this forum.

Hoos89
Great link.
CSU LA is below 60. Would a 3.9 become a 3.6?

/

hoos89 wrote:

LittleTree wrote:

hoos89 wrote:Honestly it is way too early to even be thinking about YLS. Going to low ranking schools does not effect your chances at the vast majority of schools except Berkeley, and perhaps YLS. But YLS is ultra-competitive and 4.0/180 from a top school is not an absolute guarantee on admission. Don't transfer schools just because you think it will help you with YLS, and don't assume your'e going to score in the 170s. Honestly, it is way, way harder to get a very high GPA at a top-ranked school and most people would be better off staying at the lower ranked school if law school is their end goal.

Ok, what?

Most good schools have massive grade inflation. Lot of the low ranking schools you're thinking of still have gpa averages around 2.9-3.0 compared to some top undergrads sitting at 3.5+

I'm curious about the boalt comment too. Going to HYPS helps more at berkeley than other law schools? Never heard this before.

Give me a 3.0 against the bottom half of high school classes versus a 3.3 or even 3.5 against the top 10% any day of the week. Also, there are definitely plenty of lower ranked undergrad schools with 3.2+ gpa averages.

And yes, it is my understanding that Berkeley law adjusts for academic rigor. Swarthmore apparently gets the biggest boost. http://web.archive.org/web/200008290949 ... adeadj.htm

Hey, this is cool and I hadnt seen this exact table before, but I believe the information is a little dated. This table and the relevant article are from 1997, when many top law schools were adjusting grades, averaging LSATs, ect. Is there any evidence this practice continues 16 years later?

My prelaw adviser told me my UG received a +0.1 "boost" in LS admissions, which i quickly discovered was total bullshit. It may have been based in some 90s boomer logic founded from these types of studies (school in high red here).

The consensus Ive drawn recently is that Harvard and Columbia privilege rigorous undergraduate education/have a disproportionate number of admits and attendees from top colleges (beyond the LSAT/UG correlation), while YS can take whatever they please, so they could factor course selection/UG prestige into account -- outside of that, it basically has no impact.

/

The phonemoen of GPA inflation/deflation is referred to by the Wall Street Journal as ''LCM -- the LSAT College Mean.'' Article can be found here:
--LinkRemoved--

Have you heard of GPA college mean?

hoos89 wrote:And yes, it is my understanding that Berkeley law adjusts for academic rigor. Swarthmore apparently gets the biggest boost. http://web.archive.org/web/200008290949 ... adeadj.htm

In Berkeley world, Oberlin > Yale. My mind is full of fuck. Also, my UG, which has never been in the USNWR top 20, gets one of the top ten biggest boosts for non-LACs, over half the Ivies and Stanford. Huh?

ZVBXRPL wrote:The phonemoen of GPA inflation/deflation is referred to by the Wall Street Journal as ''LCM -- the LSAT College Mean.'' Article can be found here:
--LinkRemoved--

Have you heard of GPA college mean?

I know what GPA college mean is but IDK about my school. It's a tier 1 school, but I think if it's not T10 it doesn't matter if it's T50 or T100, or I could be wrong.
I've seen a lot of articles/posts like that, and there are stories from all sides. Looking at the Stats, there are definitely more student accepted from T10 UG to YLS than any other schools, but I'm not sure if it's because there are more students that can score high from T10 schools.
Predicting I would have weak softs and weak essays, I can't aford any more weaknesses
If 176/3.9 will give me a high chance despite my essays and softs, then I would just focus on getting that score than transferring. Puzzled.

You have such a great problem to have. It's kind of like winning money in a casino and not having room in your pockets. In all seriousness, apply and see what happens because all this speculation about UG ranking is truly a waste of time.
Got any unobvious LSAT taking tips?

/

edited

I'm not assuming I will get that score and I'm definitely not thinking it is easy to get that score, not picking on words but yes I've seen the test.
I simply brought up the 176/3.9+ score because it is what 75% of the YLS students had.
The only thing I predicted was that I will have weak softs, which do matter a bit (or more) despite what score I get.

I appreciate your advice, I know I shouldn't move hundreds of miles away from home to a completely new place just to increase the slightest chance for getting into YLS. But again, I don't know how much UG matters before, I do now.

Hope this clears up what I mean

A 3.9/176 still doesn't have a "high chance" at Yale. You don't have a "high chance" unless your application is essentially flawless. Yale still accepts fewer than half of those who are above both its medians. While certain things can essentially eliminate you from Yale, nothing you do can guarantee you admission. The process really is "holistic."

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:A 3.9/176 still doesn't have a "high chance" at Yale. You don't have a "high chance" unless your application is essentially flawless. Yale still accepts fewer than half of those who are above both its medians. While certain things can essentially eliminate you from Yale, nothing you do can guarantee you admission. The process really is "holistic."

Thanks. I'll work towards a high score first. Overall if I can't even get the median score, I'm basically busted.
If you don't mind me asking, does working experience in college matters a lot for LS in general?
I've seen posts saying clubs doesn't matter so much, how about volunteers/internships/awards?

/

Below is a link to an article that concludes (based on research) that M.B.A. applicants with high grades were much more likely to be offered admission than their counterparts with lower grades.

Article is hot off the presses and courtesy of Mike Spivey (former Vanderbilt and WUSTL adcom/Dean of Admissions).

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013 ... M.facebook

LittleTree wrote:

hoos89 wrote:Honestly it is way too early to even be thinking about YLS. Going to low ranking schools does not effect your chances at the vast majority of schools except Berkeley, and perhaps YLS. But YLS is ultra-competitive and 4.0/180 from a top school is not an absolute guarantee on admission. Don't transfer schools just because you think it will help you with YLS, and don't assume your'e going to score in the 170s. Honestly, it is way, way harder to get a very high GPA at a top-ranked school and most people would be better off staying at the lower ranked school if law school is their end goal.

Ok, what?

Most good schools have massive grade inflation. Lot of the low ranking schools you're thinking of still have gpa averages around 2.9-3.0 compared to some top undergrads sitting at 3.5+

I'm curious about the boalt comment too. Going to HYPS helps more at berkeley than other law schools? Never heard this before.

I know this is beating a dead horse (to put it mildly), but anyone who suggests that getting a good GPA is more difficult from lower ranked schools that don't practice grade inflation vs. a top school that does is delusional.

I've attended both (took a year of classes at a run of the mill low ranked school in HS), and it is not even comparable. Half of the people at shitty schools are barely literate. I would have easily maintained a 3.9+ at that school, whereas I had to work a fuckton to swing an A- average at the top 5 LAC.

/

The article is about how (and what) adcoms view numbers (as). Knowing this information can answer OP's question. However, obvious assumptions which may or may not be correct cannot answer the original question. This ( http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=625 ) former Dean of admissions mostly agreeing with the article-- that adcoms first look at numbers and then may or may not look into UG schools grading average CAN help answer the question. So to answer OP's question, UG mostly matters if you have a low GPA from any school but the top, top. However, if you have a high GPA not from the top, top, most of the time UG does not matter. However, it pays to remember that by "most of the time" refers to the point that adcoms have access to and may check your the UG's grading standards per the CES report.

A classmate of mine from a no-name Christian liberal arts school went to Yale. He had a 4.0, not sure what his LSAT was. If the stats are there undergrad doesn't matter.