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scores came back today, and I dropped. a lot. looking for advice!


stats: splitter.

gpa: 2.79

lsat: 171, 173, 168 (june)


as you can see, improved once on the lsat, and then dropped out of the 170s for this administration. At this point, my GPA and LSAT scores are fixed. No more chances for me.

I was hoping to improve on the 173 and maybe crack the t-14, but that's looking impossible now. No real softs, no work experience... should I even bother applying? Am I now just completely out of the running for law school all together?

seeking advice, maybe a few ideas of what schools I have reach shots at. Reality appreciated!

thank you!


EDIT: the 2.9 is my lsdas gpa, I'm like 2 years out of undergrad.

Give up? You should waltz into Northwestern and Georgetown, and WUSTL among other midwestern splitter-lovers will give you 100K+. It's not like a 180 would have made much difference.

no work experience

What have you been doing the past 2 years?

If your goal is biglaw, ED UVA. If your goal isn't biglaw, apply widely to the t7-20.

Law schools will accept you but it will be very expensive.



A big reason we echo retake in so many circumstances is that all historical evidence suggests a score drop.as you experienced has little to no impact outside of HYS, if that.

depending on what you want to do you could possibly turn that 173 into a full ride at a local law school, that could be a decent option.

Just remember you have a 173, not a 168. Decide (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com) accordingly

Hi everyone:

First, thanks for the replies. I'll take these posts one at a time!

@Tiago: Forgive me, but I assumed based on mylsn that NU and GULC were pretty much faaar reaches. I see that NU gives me the best shot percentage-wise, but I assumed that a large chunk of them were in because of work experience. I'm still seeing... not good odds on mylsn, but you're also a very well respected poster, so if you have information that I don't, please enlighten me! I'm also curious as to why you chose these, and left out some peer schools. For example, mylsn seems to indicate that I have a better chance at cornell than georgetown. I realize that sample sizes are small with splitters, so I'm interested in your thoughts.

@flynn: well... for the most part, i have been in school. My first degree (religious studies) turned out to be impractical so I went to graduate school, for the much more practical master's in religious studies. Super smart move. During this time, I've tried and failed to start 3 different small businesses (nothing very awesome... rented out a shop in the city and repaired cars for a while, had a small business making revolver accessories, sold about $100 worth of stuff in six months, and tried a custom bicycle company that still hasn't sold a single bike. Not too proud of these, but in my defense they weren't "real" tries as much as they were designed to make even some money while I was living on loans for school). I assume neither of these constitutes a decent soft or work experience.

@sinfiery: My long term goal is not biglaw, but it'd be nice to have it as an option for a year or two to get my loans down. This is not a requirement, however. A big part of the problem is that I'm a california man, with strong ties to the state (have a son in central california, family, fiance, etc). my goals all revolve around working in california, but what are my choices as far as decent schools? Stanford, Cal, UCLA, USC. None of which are splitter friendly, and while I would literally pay double sticker for any of these schools, i'm guessing that I'm locked out of all of them.
My research seems to indicate that, for california, UVA has the lowest placement numbers. Some of that may be self selection, but it's also (anecdotally) true that UVA has the least amount of prestige/name recognition/clout in california. In terms of the t-14, I would say UVA is my last choice. I am ABSOLUTELY going to apply, but I'm a little wary of ed-ing since it is so low on my list. If I have a non-negligible shot at another t-14, I would much rather apply elsewhere first. Of course, if I basically have no shot at any other t-14, i may end up having to ED uva. My feeling is that outside of the t-14, I'd be looking at a good chance of living where I go to school, and, as i mentioned above, all of the "regional" schools that may be worth going to at all in my target area don't seem likely to accept me. Given this, does this change your advice?

@Al: While this would be a great option, it seems unlikely with my GPA, right? Especially in california? I have the feeling that any school worth going to in california will lock me out, and that even the crap schools won't want my lsat score enough to overlook my gpa for a full ride. Paying any money for any regional school in this market seems pretty dangerous, so unless you know something about what kinds of candidates are potential full ride recipients (in which case, please enlighten me!), this doesn't seem to be something to count on, unfortunately.

@Br3v: This is the conventional wisdom, and I like to think it's true. But there's gotta be SOME pause associated with a 5 point drop, right? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I'd be more inclined to admit a 168/170/172 than a 172/170/168, all else being equal. An increase seems to indicate maturity, getting better at the lsat, growth, etc. whereas a decrease doesn't necessarily but could indicate laziness, lack of studying, waning lack of interest in the process, etc.
And, some schools average, correct? Or do they all just take high scores now, at least in practice? Mostly I'm just freaking about dropping, and if enough people tell me that I should consider myself as having a 173, I will do so and feel a LOT better.

So, thanks again for the responses thus far. I'm still interested in hearing any thoughts. What are my best options, especially regarding california placement, for this cycle? Do I have any reach schools (like, greater than, say, 25% chance) within the t-14?

thanks!

@Br3v: This is the conventional wisdom, and I like to think it's true. But there's gotta be SOME pause associated with a 5 point drop, right? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I'd be more inclined to admit a 168/170/172 than a 172/170/168, all else being equal. An increase seems to indicate maturity, getting better at the lsat, growth, etc. whereas a decrease doesn't necessarily but could indicate laziness, lack of studying, waning lack of interest in the process, etc.
And, some schools average, correct? Or do they all just take high scores now, at least in practice? Mostly I'm just freaking about dropping, and if enough people tell me that I should consider myself as having a 173, I will do so and feel a LOT better.

Yeah I mean there will probably be a slight thought along the lines of "hmm a 5 point drop, what happened?". Maybe you should consider addressing what happened with a LSAT addendum, however you should look into what the TLS general advice is for LSAT addendums because I am not really sure. Beyond that initial pause however, I just do not think the school will care. You have taken the LSAT 3 times, that enough tells them that you are taking apply to schools seriously. Also, mathematically it will not mean anything to the school so that gives them an huge incentive to just not care regardless.

And I do not think any t14 averages anymore. I think maybe Y or S may consider it (once again not too sure) but beyond that you are okay. Even if schools did though, you cant do anything about that so no need to worry about it.

Apply widely everywhere as early as possible except UVA. I think your best chance is UCLA, hopefully with money. If nothing comes of it, ED UVA within the deadline.






Also, if you take out loans for this whole thing, it will take 5-8 years of biglaw to pay off at a minimum, if you get biglaw.

willmendel wrote:Hi everyone:

First, thanks for the replies. I'll take these posts one at a time!

@Tiago: Forgive me, but I assumed based on mylsn that NU and GULC were pretty much faaar reaches. I see that NU gives me the best shot percentage-wise, but I assumed that a large chunk of them were in because of work experience. I'm still seeing... not good odds on mylsn, but you're also a very well respected poster, so if you have information that I don't, please enlighten me! I'm also curious as to why you chose these, and left out some peer schools. For example, mylsn seems to indicate that I have a better chance at cornell than georgetown. I realize that sample sizes are small with splitters, so I'm interested in your thoughts.

When I saw you were two years out I assumed you had the necessary work experience for Northwestern. Even without a traditional job, time in a master's program and some attempted start-up businesses might be enough.

For Georgetown, I think you just have to look at the most recent LSN graph. They accepted most people with greater than a 170 and above a 2.8. Cornell didn't accept anyone below 3.0 from what I can tell. And historically Georgetown is much more splitter friendly than Cornell. But it is a small sample size, so I may have overstated your Georgetown chances, but I think you still have a great shot.

Unfortunately California is the worst place to be for a splitter. I say this as a Californian myself. Apply very broadly, but your best bet will likely end up being paying big for the T-14 and trying to come back or just not going at all. You aren't likely to find a cheap regional offering a good enough discount.

If northwetersn counts waiters or teachers, they'll count entrepreneurs.

Desert Fox wrote:If northwetersn counts waiters or teachers, they'll count entrepreneurs.

I lol'ed hard. "Count waiters or teachers"-- being a teacher is probably one of the most stressful jobs in America. Being a teacher is very difficult.

Northwestern will love your entrepreneurial spirit. Def tailor your app to emphasize that and your bizness experience and you should get in there, maybe with some $

@ Br3v: Darn. If yale and stanford would just take my high score, i'd be a lock

But, seriously, your advice is good. Unfortunately for me, I'm not sure what happened, certainly there wasn't enough of a "thing" to justify an addendum. I just sucked that day.

@sinfiery: Your mylsn graph is very generous. Can I ask, why did you set the GPA at 3.3? I will not pretend to be an expert, but all my lurking has suggested that schools look very differently at a 2.9 and a 3.0, to the point that, to a large extent, a 2.5 to 2.9 are almost the same, and a 3.0 to a 3.29 are pretty similar. Including up to 3.3 seems (to me) to be generous in that a good number of those who were accepted were above the unstated 3.0 cutoff and therefore in a different group, and the outlook looks much more bleak when you set the gpa at 2.0-2.99—but my feeling is that 2.0-2.99 is more accurate. But again, I'm no expert. If you had a reason for doing this or if I'm wrong about what I said above, please feel free to set me straight! Thanks!

@Tiago: I see, that's kind of what I assumed about the work experience. Too bad for me.
When I do the mylsn graph, I usually use the last 3-4 years or so, thinking that the relatively small amount that things have changed may be worth the increase in data points. But your point is still well taken, in that cornell cares more about gpa. You seem to have a handle on this, though, so I have to ask... beyond georgetown and NU, what do you think happens as far as my chances? If I do, in fact, have a "great shot" at gulc, is this my only non-negligible t-14 option? Not asking because I'd be unhappy with gulc, but i'm at the stage where I have to start doing cost/benefit analysis for applications. Like, even with a fee waiver, I wouldn't waste my time and that $15 fee or whatever to apply to yale. Just too much of a zero chance (the only chance being a clerical error, probably!). Is it worth blanketing the lower t-14, and outside of gulc/nu, where do you think I stand? 10%? 1%? 50%? Just trying to get a handle, and people like you are an invaluable resource for people like me... you have experience beyond the small number of data points, have heard stories, have been here, and just generally have more information.

Thanks everyone for your input so far!

@those three posts that have been posted as I wrote this: Is this common? I feel like if they count these, I could just put anything on my resume. "yeah, it looks like a gap where I was unemployed, but actually i started a small housecleaning business during those 5 years. Didn't take off and was small, so there's no actual proof, but trust me. I have work experience".
What stops people from just making stuff like this up?
"well, I fixed my mother-in-law's computer once, and she gave me $5, so I guess I ran a small computer repair business..."

willmendel wrote: @Tiago: I see, that's kind of what I assumed about the work experience. Too bad for me.
When I do the mylsn graph, I usually use the last 3-4 years or so, thinking that the relatively small amount that things have changed may be worth the increase in data points. But your point is still well taken, in that cornell cares more about gpa. You seem to have a handle on this, though, so I have to ask... beyond georgetown and NU, what do you think happens as far as my chances? If I do, in fact, have a "great shot" at gulc, is this my only non-negligible t-14 option? Not asking because I'd be unhappy with gulc, but i'm at the stage where I have to start doing cost/benefit analysis for applications. Like, even with a fee waiver, I wouldn't waste my time and that $15 fee or whatever to apply to yale. Just too much of a zero chance (the only chance being a clerical error, probably!). Is it worth blanketing the lower t-14, and outside of gulc/nu, where do you think I stand? 10%? 1%? 50%? Just trying to get a handle, and people like you are an invaluable resource for people like me... you have experience beyond the small number of data points, have heard stories, have been here, and just generally have more information.

I wouldn't apply to HYSCCN or Berkeley. Duke also probably not worth an app, but Penn might be. Hell NYU might actually be worth an app by next cycle if they keep their huge class size. Apply to the rest of the T-14 and a number of schools below that.

As for lying about work experience, don't put anything you wouldn't feel comfortable defending in front of the Character and Fitness people for the Bar Exam. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with some evidence that you had some failed small businesses though.

bizzybone1313 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:If northwetersn counts waiters or teachers, they'll count entrepreneurs.

I lol'ed hard. "Count waiters or teachers"-- being a teacher is probably one of the most stressful jobs in America. Being a teacher is very difficult.

So is being a drug mule, doesn't mean it should count as professional work.

But I call bullshit on teaching being a more stressful than average job. You basically can't get fired, and you face zero consequences for being shitty. Sorry, I don't buy that shit for even a second.

willmendel wrote:@ Br3v: Darn. If yale and stanford would just take my high score, i'd be a lock

But, seriously, your advice is good. Unfortunately for me, I'm not sure what happened, certainly there wasn't enough of a "thing" to justify an addendum. I just sucked that day.

@sinfiery: Your mylsn graph is very generous. Can I ask, why did you set the GPA at 3.3? I will not pretend to be an expert, but all my lurking has suggested that schools look very differently at a 2.9 and a 3.0, to the point that, to a large extent, a 2.5 to 2.9 are almost the same, and a 3.0 to a 3.29 are pretty similar. Including up to 3.3 seems (to me) to be generous in that a good number of those who were accepted were above the unstated 3.0 cutoff and therefore in a different group, and the outlook looks much more bleak when you set the gpa at 2.0-2.99—but my feeling is that 2.0-2.99 is more accurate. But again, I'm no expert. If you had a reason for doing this or if I'm wrong about what I said above, please feel free to set me straight! Thanks!

@Tiago: I see, that's kind of what I assumed about the work experience. Too bad for me.
When I do the mylsn graph, I usually use the last 3-4 years or so, thinking that the relatively small amount that things have changed may be worth the increase in data points. But your point is still well taken, in that cornell cares more about gpa. You seem to have a handle on this, though, so I have to ask... beyond georgetown and NU, what do you think happens as far as my chances? If I do, in fact, have a "great shot" at gulc, is this my only non-negligible t-14 option? Not asking because I'd be unhappy with gulc, but i'm at the stage where I have to start doing cost/benefit analysis for applications. Like, even with a fee waiver, I wouldn't waste my time and that $15 fee or whatever to apply to yale. Just too much of a zero chance (the only chance being a clerical error, probably!). Is it worth blanketing the lower t-14, and outside of gulc/nu, where do you think I stand? 10%? 1%? 50%? Just trying to get a handle, and people like you are an invaluable resource for people like me... you have experience beyond the small number of data points, have heard stories, have been here, and just generally have more information.

Thanks everyone for your input so far!

@those three posts that have been posted as I wrote this: Is this common? I feel like if they count these, I could just put anything on my resume. "yeah, it looks like a gap where I was unemployed, but actually i started a small housecleaning business during those 5 years. Didn't take off and was small, so there's no actual proof, but trust me. I have work experience".
What stops people from just making stuff like this up?
"well, I fixed my mother-in-law's computer once, and she gave me $5, so I guess I ran a small computer repair business..."

Fear of getting certification and fitness pwnd.

Desert Fox wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:If northwetersn counts waiters or teachers, they'll count entrepreneurs.

I lol'ed hard. "Count waiters or teachers"-- being a teacher is probably one of the most stressful jobs in America. Being a teacher is very difficult.

So is being a drug mule, doesn't mean it should count as professional work.

But I call bullshit on teaching being a more stressful than average job. You basically can't get fired, and you face zero consequences for being shitty. Sorry, I don't buy that shit for even a second.

Those four months off a year are pretty hostile working conditions.