Top Law Schools

That's my undergrad GPA from a university in Illinois. I'm hoping to attend an accredited school in Illinois or Wisconsin. Here's my hopeful list of schools (haven't applied yet):

Chicago-Kent College of Law, Illinois Institute of Technology
DePaul University College of Law
Marquette University Law School
Northern Illinois University College of Law
Southern Illinois University School of Law
University of Wisconsin Law School

Do I stand a solid chance at any of them? If I retake the LSAT and get above a 160 (which I'm sure I can do since I took the LSAT without any prep at all for that 157), will my chances dramatically go up?

I'm pretty sure this is a flame, but just in case, I will say this in the nicest way possible.
Do not pay any money for these schools period.

Clearlynotstefan wrote:I'm pretty sure this is a flame, but just in case, I will say this in the nicest way possible.
Do not pay any money for these schools period.

A flame? I've never heard that terminology used in any online forum.

Why shouldn't I pay money? They're good schools, their application pages make it seem like my LSAT gives me a chance to attend, and they're within driving distance.

hopingtoattend wrote:

Clearlynotstefan wrote:I'm pretty sure this is a flame, but just in case, I will say this in the nicest way possible.
Do not pay any money for these schools period.

A flame? I've never heard that terminology used in any online forum.

Why shouldn't I pay money? They're good schools, their application pages make it seem like my LSAT gives me a chance to attend, and they're within driving distance.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

No school that will take you with those numbers is worth attending. You need to spend solid time studying for the LSAT and should be aiming for a 170+ to offset that GPA.

Icculus wrote:No school that will take you with those numbers is worth attending. You need to spend solid time studying for the LSAT and should be aiming for a 170+ to offset that GPA.

Do you really mean to say that all of the schools listed by the LSAC for the state of Wisconsin and Illinois are not worth attending? I don't believe that none of them would take me when DePaul's median GPA was 158 for 2012. I'm sure I could retake and test above that, then add an addendum and explain my GPA. It'd be difficult, but you can't honestly mean that I have no shot whatsoever?

hopingtoattend wrote:

Icculus wrote:No school that will take you with those numbers is worth attending. You need to spend solid time studying for the LSAT and should be aiming for a 170+ to offset that GPA.

Do you really mean to say that all of the schools listed by the LSAC for the state of Wisconsin and Illinois are not worth attending? I don't believe that none of them would take me when DePaul's median GPA was 158 for 2012. I'm sure I could retake and test above that, then add an addendum and explain my GPA. It'd be difficult, but you can't honestly mean that I have no shot whatsoever?

GPA addendum will do nothing. Even if you get in with your numbers you will pay sticker and those schools are not worth it.

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Icculus wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Icculus wrote:No school that will take you with those numbers is worth attending. You need to spend solid time studying for the LSAT and should be aiming for a 170+ to offset that GPA.

Do you really mean to say that all of the schools listed by the LSAC for the state of Wisconsin and Illinois are not worth attending? I don't believe that none of them would take me when DePaul's median GPA was 158 for 2012. I'm sure I could retake and test above that, then add an addendum and explain my GPA. It'd be difficult, but you can't honestly mean that I have no shot whatsoever?

GPA addendum will do nothing. Even if you get in with your numbers you will pay sticker and those schools are not worth it.

I just looked up the statistics for a few of the schools and they seem to have pretty good numbers for employment. Northern Illinois had a median LSAT of 150 and a median GPA of 3.16. I think that if I can score 165+ (which I can since I got a 157 without any sort of preparation and after driving two hours to get to test site), I can easily get into that school and receive a discounted tuition.

Could you be a bit more realistic and helpful? Your responses seem to all generally be, "Nope, you're not getting in anywhere." I realize my qualifications are bad, but I'm sure I can get that 165 LSAT and that should make me at least competitive.

sublime wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Icculus wrote:No school that will take you with those numbers is worth attending. You need to spend solid time studying for the LSAT and should be aiming for a 170+ to offset that GPA.

Do you really mean to say that all of the schools listed by the LSAC for the state of Wisconsin and Illinois are not worth attending? I don't believe that none of them would take me when DePaul's median GPA was 158 for 2012. I'm sure I could retake and test above that, then add an addendum and explain my GPA. It'd be difficult, but you can't honestly mean that I have no shot whatsoever?

What they are saying is that there are good schools in those states (including two of the T14) but with your grades and LSAT, it is unlikely you could get into any of them.

Your best bet would probably be to score better on the LSAT (at least high 160s) and try to get into Wisconsin (if you want to work there) or UIUC.

Then again, that GPA may just be too terrible to overcome.

Btw, and I don't mean this to be condescending, but if you barely averaged a C in UG, what makes you think you would do well in LS?

Why aren't the schools I listed good schools? What would be a good school that I could get into?

I'm confident that I can get at least a 165 on the LSAT after taking it again. As I said above, I got a 157 without any preparation whatsoever. With a 165, I'd have a solid chance at getting into some of the schools listed above. Why would they be bad choices? Their employment rates are solid.

My GPA from undergrad is the result of being forced into a major I didn't like and doing poorly. Once I switched to the major I did want, I did well, but it wasn't enough to recover. Not to mention my mother's divorce, my inability to live near my university for a while, and my depression (which is being managed). I think that an LSAT of 165 would prove that my GPA was the result of psychological factors that have now been alleviated and not simply a lack of talent or dedication on my part.

You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

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Nova wrote:You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

What if I get an LSAT of 165?

sublime wrote:Ok. I just wanted to make sure you had considered it.

This is why NIU is not good: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=niu

Look up the other schools and you will see the same thing.

You are really going to need to do well on the LSAT, but I would target the University of Wisconsin, the University of Iowa, and UIUC. I don't know how they are with super splitters though. You would still have to pay more than you should for those, but with the GPA, there is unfortunately no way around it.

If I retest and get a 165, should I apply to UW alone and hope I get in or apply to some of the schools listed above? Also, what's UIUC? I can't seem to find it.

Also, I'm open to going to Marquette in Wisconsin. They do't seem to be too off from UW.

Dude, you're not listening. Go to law school transparency. These schools have terrible employment outcomes that don't justify the high costs. Its not about if you can get in or not...You aren't likely to get a job that will pay off the debt you are taking to attend. Anyone can get into "a" law school, that doesn't mean its worth going.

The responses so far are spot on in my opinion. I'd suggest you read some relevant topics and posts on this website if you're looking for further insight.

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UIUC = University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

run hypos on http://www.mylsn.info/app_checker.php

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re: UIUC
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=UIUC

re: your numbers

http://www.mylsn.info/gzgdyg

1) The market for newly minted JDs SUCKS. Look into employment issues for law school grads and how law schools are trying to deal with the new paradigm.
2) The schools you listed have abhorrent stats as far as how many of their graduates are employed after graduation.
3) Sticker for law school + opportunity costs + Terrible odds of getting a job that even requires a law degree = TERRIBLE IDEA
4) Partial scholarship, or even a full scholarship at those schools don't make a whole hell of a lot of difference.
5) Ask yourself some real heartfelt questions, and answer them honestly.
5a) Why law school?
5b) What are your expectations before, during, and after law school?
5c) Based on what evidence?
5d) Make the call, but be ready to be disappointed, and be ready to be okay with it and deal with it.

Just some thoughts.

sublime wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Nova wrote:You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

What if I get an LSAT of 165?

This is you right now: http://www.mylsn.info/cxipi8

This is you if you have around a 165: http://www.mylsn.info/9n4d6b

To give you an idea.

What does IIT mean on that list of schools?

It seems that Indiana is the only school with whom I have a good chance of getting into that I'm anywhere near.

I realize that some of the schools I listed aren't great, but according to all of the new resources you've provided, there aren't any schools at all who would accept me.

Are the schools I listed really that bad? Several have tuition rates listed on that transparency website that are comparable to optimal schools that I wouldn't be able to get into.

sublime wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Nova wrote:You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

What if I get an LSAT of 165?

sublime wrote:Ok. I just wanted to make sure you had considered it.

This is why NIU is not good: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=niu

Look up the other schools and you will see the same thing.

You are really going to need to do well on the LSAT, but I would target the University of Wisconsin, the University of Iowa, and UIUC. I don't know how they are with super splitters though. You would still have to pay more than you should for those, but with the GPA, there is unfortunately no way around it.

If I retest and get a 165, should I apply to UW alone and hope I get in or apply to some of the schools listed above? Also, what's UIUC? I can't seem to find it.

Also, I'm open to going to Marquette in Wisconsin. They do't seem to be too off from UW.

Sorry, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champagne.

Btw, you have not mentioned what your career goals are, where you want to work, etc. That makes a difference. I would urge you to consider something else though.

What major were you? If it was in the social sciences, you really should not attend law school. The GPA means you are severely limited in terms of where you can go and how much you will pay. At those schools you would need to finish top 10% ish to get a job to pay back your loans. If you got a 2.3 in a social sciences undergrad major, you probably won't be able to finish top of class in law.

I vehemently disagree with your last paragraph. My GPA in philosophy (my major) was the result of choosing biology first, doing poorly, and then switching at the last second possible. There were extenuating circumstances that have nothing to do with my academic ability or talent. I'm sure I can get at least a 165 and that alone should prove that I'm not incompetent.

hopingtoattend wrote:

sublime wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Nova wrote:You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

What if I get an LSAT of 165?

This is you right now: http://www.mylsn.info/cxipi8

This is you if you have around a 165: http://www.mylsn.info/9n4d6b

To give you an idea.

Damn! You beat me to my edit! I used slightly better numbers with the gpa, though.

hopingtoattend wrote:

sublime wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Nova wrote:You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

What if I get an LSAT of 165?

This is you right now: http://www.mylsn.info/cxipi8

This is you if you have around a 165: http://www.mylsn.info/9n4d6b

To give you an idea.

What does IIT mean on that list of schools?

It seems that Indiana is the only school with whom I have a good chance of getting into that I'm anywhere near.

I realize that some of the schools I listed aren't great, but according to all of the new resources you've provided, there aren't any schools at all who would accept me.

Are the schools I listed really that bad? Several have tuition rates listed on that transparency website that are comparable to optimal schools that I wouldn't be able to get into.

sublime wrote:

hopingtoattend wrote:

Nova wrote:You have almost no chance at schools with LSAT medians above 157. If you were to get into a school with an LSAT median above 157, you would likely be paying full tuition (getting ripped off).

What if I get an LSAT of 165?

sublime wrote:Ok. I just wanted to make sure you had considered it.

This is why NIU is not good: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=niu

Look up the other schools and you will see the same thing.

You are really going to need to do well on the LSAT, but I would target the University of Wisconsin, the University of Iowa, and UIUC. I don't know how they are with super splitters though. You would still have to pay more than you should for those, but with the GPA, there is unfortunately no way around it.

If I retest and get a 165, should I apply to UW alone and hope I get in or apply to some of the schools listed above? Also, what's UIUC? I can't seem to find it.

Also, I'm open to going to Marquette in Wisconsin. They do't seem to be too off from UW.

Sorry, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champagne.

Btw, you have not mentioned what your career goals are, where you want to work, etc. That makes a difference. I would urge you to consider something else though.

What major were you? If it was in the social sciences, you really should not attend law school. The GPA means you are severely limited in terms of where you can go and how much you will pay. At those schools you would need to finish top 10% ish to get a job to pay back your loans. If you got a 2.3 in a social sciences undergrad major, you probably won't be able to finish top of class in law.

I vehemently disagree with your last paragraph. My GPA in philosophy (my major) was the result of choosing biology first, doing poorly, and then switching at the last second possible. There were extenuating circumstances that have nothing to do with my academic ability or talent. I'm sure I can get at least a 165 and that alone should prove that I'm not incompetent.

They are at least 4 times as bad as you think. Do not go.

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sublime wrote:ITT is Chicago-Kent, I believe. Illinois Institute of Technology? Maybe?

It seems like (if not a flame) you are new here. If you go over to the "choosing a law school" forum you will see what the general consensus is about how much you should be willing to pay for each school. That should help you get the general perspective of the forum.

I know it is not what you want to hear, but nobody on this thread is going to tell you that any of those schools are a good idea.

Is there another section of these forums where I could go to get advice on which school I should attend? The consensus here seems to be... unhelpful. You've told me where to NOT go, but haven't offered many great on ideas on where to go.

I'm not a "flame" and I find your esoteric use of that word to be pretty grating. The rest of the internet would say "a troll" or "someone who is flaming". But that's neither here nor there.

It sounds like we may, at least, agree to disagree.

hopingtoattend wrote:
Is there another section of these forums where I could go to get advice on which school I should attend? The consensus here seems to be... unhelpful. You've told me where to NOT go, but haven't offered many great on ideas on where to go.

You should at least go to a decent Midwest school (WUSTL/UIUC/UMN/UW/OSU/Iowa/Indiana) with a scholarship. Score 165-167+ and I bet one or two will take a chance on you.