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Do law schools consider this when making decisions? I was an idiot when I was younger (10 years ago) and decided that school wasn't the most important thing. In order to make up for my 2.24 GPA from my first two years, I have had to maintain nearly a 4.0 GPA throughout the last two years (3.97 GPA). This has brought my cumulative GPA right around a 3.0. To make matters worse, I got a 147 on my LSAT. I have applied to several schools and have been accepted to several, but all of them are Tier 3 and 4 schools. Are my chances of getting into a Tier 1 or 2 impossible with those numbers? Will admissions look at my improved GPA and consider the 3.97 or will they only see the 3.0?

Thanks everyone!

They will only care about your LSDAS GPA

Upward trends are a dime a dozen

Trends do not matter, retake the lsat.

You should either retake and shoot for a 170 and up, or strongly consider other options.

Ultimately the LSAT is what makes or breaks everyone, but even more so with you. Your early grades are poor, your new grades are awesome. You want to look like a smart guy who made a mistake once, not a slacker who managed to pull his shit together for two years. The 147 indicates poorly for this. If you retake and get an awesome score and write an addendum, you can potentially get into some decent schools.

Upward trends don't really matter, because schools wish to retain their rank. Part of doing that is accepting kids who meet their standards and denying those who don't. It doesn't really matter if you had an upward trend, because on paper you are no better than a guy who got 3.0 all along. That's the truth, I know it sucks. I got a 3.2 my first year and now I'm struggling to meet the GPA requirements for top schools now in my junior year.

isuperserial wrote:You should either retake and shoot for a 170 and up, or strongly consider other options.

Ultimately the LSAT is what makes or breaks everyone, but even more so with you. Your early grades are poor, your new grades are awesome. You want to look like a smart guy who made a mistake once, not a slacker who managed to pull his shit together for two years. The 147 indicates poorly for this. If you retake and get an awesome score and write an addendum, you can potentially get into some decent schools.

Upward trends don't really matter, because schools wish to retain their rank. Part of doing that is accepting kids who meet their standards and denying those who don't. It doesn't really matter if you had an upward trend, because on paper you are no better than a guy who got 3.0 all along. That's the truth, I know it sucks. I got a 3.2 my first year and now I'm struggling to meet the GPA requirements for top schools now in my junior year.

Thank you for the honest response. To be honest, I worked my ass off studying for the LSAT and still got a 147. The problem I had was being able to read fast enough. I have always been a fairly slow reader. If I had had five more minutes during each section then I would have more than likely gotten 8 out of 10 questions correct. I'm sure that's the issue with most people taking the LSAT though. I ordered every practice test, bought the Kaplan books, and studied rigorously for two months and that's what I ended up with. Thanks again!

Baseball_2013 wrote:

isuperserial wrote:You should either retake and shoot for a 170 and up, or strongly consider other options.

Ultimately the LSAT is what makes or breaks everyone, but even more so with you. Your early grades are poor, your new grades are awesome. You want to look like a smart guy who made a mistake once, not a slacker who managed to pull his shit together for two years. The 147 indicates poorly for this. If you retake and get an awesome score and write an addendum, you can potentially get into some decent schools.

Upward trends don't really matter, because schools wish to retain their rank. Part of doing that is accepting kids who meet their standards and denying those who don't. It doesn't really matter if you had an upward trend, because on paper you are no better than a guy who got 3.0 all along. That's the truth, I know it sucks. I got a 3.2 my first year and now I'm struggling to meet the GPA requirements for top schools now in my junior year.

Thank you for the honest response. To be honest, I worked my ass off studying for the LSAT and still got a 147. The problem I had was being able to read fast enough. I have always been a fairly slow reader. If I had had five more minutes during each section then I would have more than likely gotten 8 out of 10 questions correct. I'm sure that's the issue with most people taking the LSAT though. I ordered every practice test, bought the Kaplan books, and studied rigorously for two months and that's what I ended up with. Thanks again!

Keep studying more. Two months is not enough. Use the resources on TLS to learn how to study. If 147 is the very best you can do you should not be a lawyer.

K Rock wrote:

Baseball_2013 wrote:

isuperserial wrote:You should either retake and shoot for a 170 and up, or strongly consider other options.

Ultimately the LSAT is what makes or breaks everyone, but even more so with you. Your early grades are poor, your new grades are awesome. You want to look like a smart guy who made a mistake once, not a slacker who managed to pull his shit together for two years. The 147 indicates poorly for this. If you retake and get an awesome score and write an addendum, you can potentially get into some decent schools.

Upward trends don't really matter, because schools wish to retain their rank. Part of doing that is accepting kids who meet their standards and denying those who don't. It doesn't really matter if you had an upward trend, because on paper you are no better than a guy who got 3.0 all along. That's the truth, I know it sucks. I got a 3.2 my first year and now I'm struggling to meet the GPA requirements for top schools now in my junior year.

Thank you for the honest response. To be honest, I worked my ass off studying for the LSAT and still got a 147. The problem I had was being able to read fast enough. I have always been a fairly slow reader. If I had had five more minutes during each section then I would have more than likely gotten 8 out of 10 questions correct. I'm sure that's the issue with most people taking the LSAT though. I ordered every practice test, bought the Kaplan books, and studied rigorously for two months and that's what I ended up with. Thanks again!

Keep studying more. Two months is not enough. Use the resources on TLS to learn how to study. If 147 is the very best you can do you should not be a lawyer.

Two months is way more than enough if he did every PT.

But yea, don't go to law school. You don't have the intelligence for it.

Desert Fox wrote: Two months is way more than enough if he did every PT.

But yea, don't go to law school. You don't have the intelligence for it.

He actually just said taht ordered them all. I was assuming he didn't actually take them all. If so, then yeah should probably call it quits.

Honestly there's no shame in calling it quits if reading speed is an issue. I'm no lawyer yet, but I'm pretty sure reading fast and accurately is a key skill, and the necessity for it doesn't go away after the LSAT.

Take pride in the fact that you did your best and continue to work hard in life; I'm sure there is something else you'll find you excel in.

Best of luck!

My friend took a speed reading class in college. He improved his ability to read by several hundred words per minute. It is one of the most easily earned intellectual skills ever. If that really is you're only issue, don't worry about it. Retake.

Desert Fox wrote:

K Rock wrote:

Baseball_2013 wrote:

isuperserial wrote:You should either retake and shoot for a 170 and up, or strongly consider other options.

Ultimately the LSAT is what makes or breaks everyone, but even more so with you. Your early grades are poor, your new grades are awesome. You want to look like a smart guy who made a mistake once, not a slacker who managed to pull his shit together for two years. The 147 indicates poorly for this. If you retake and get an awesome score and write an addendum, you can potentially get into some decent schools.

Upward trends don't really matter, because schools wish to retain their rank. Part of doing that is accepting kids who meet their standards and denying those who don't. It doesn't really matter if you had an upward trend, because on paper you are no better than a guy who got 3.0 all along. That's the truth, I know it sucks. I got a 3.2 my first year and now I'm struggling to meet the GPA requirements for top schools now in my junior year.

Thank you for the honest response. To be honest, I worked my ass off studying for the LSAT and still got a 147. The problem I had was being able to read fast enough. I have always been a fairly slow reader. If I had had five more minutes during each section then I would have more than likely gotten 8 out of 10 questions correct. I'm sure that's the issue with most people taking the LSAT though. I ordered every practice test, bought the Kaplan books, and studied rigorously for two months and that's what I ended up with. Thanks again!

Keep studying more. Two months is not enough. Use the resources on TLS to learn how to study. If 147 is the very best you can do you should not be a lawyer.

Two months is way more than enough if he did every PT.

But yea, don't go to law school. You don't have the intelligence for it.

I value your professional opinion. I will be sure not to heed your advice. Reading a little slower than the average person should not be the reason I decide to "throw in the towel" and give up on a career that I could be great at. I appreciate the insult though and wish you the best.

I mean if you are barely literate, it's a problem bro.

Desert Fox wrote:I mean if you are barely literate, it's a problem bro.

You're absolutely right! I is dumb, "Bro."

Take care and good luck!

Baseball_2013 wrote:
I value your professional opinion. I will be sure not to heed your advice. Reading a little slower than the average person should not be the reason I decide to "throw in the towel" and give up on a career that I could be great at. I appreciate the insult though and wish you the best.

Haha TLS "professionals". Maybe there should be a TLS certificate too.

Baseball_2013 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:I mean if you are barely literate, it's a problem bro.

You're absolutely right! I is dumb, "Bro."

Take care and good luck!

Well you are barely getting half right the questions right. You are dumb.

Well OP did say he studied with Kaplan which may very well have made him do worse.

@OP

Kaplan is considered one of the least effective and reputable test prep companies out there. Your only reasonable options at this point are to either not go to law school or to retake the LSAT and reapply in the future. If you do choose the second, I would recommend checking out the LSAT prep forum for recommendations for good study materials to get and more well regarded test prep companies to take courses from.

OP, here's the problem: even if you had a 3.97 LSDAS GPA, you wouldn't be able to get into anywhere worth going to with a 147. While both GPA and LSAT score are important, in general a poor GPA can be overcome with a great LSAT, whereas a poor LSAT (especially one as bad as a 147) can't be overcome. Your LSAT is holding you back more than your GPA.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say you're not intelligent enough to be a lawyer (maybe you are, I have no idea), you do lack the LSAT/GPA numbers sufficient to make this a wise investment. As I detailed for you in another thread, the schools you are looking at are simply atrocious. Any school that accepts a 147/sub-3.0 is going to fleece you for your money and hand you a worthless degree at graduation. It isn't necessarily an intelligence thing, but I think as of right now, you are not fit for law school with those numbers. I knew a lot of people who were very smart and very driven who, because of their MCAT score, couldn't get into medical school. But unlike medical school, there are a bunch of toilet schools that accept low GPA/LSATs and lead people to believe that law school is for everyone. It isn't. There are far more graduates than jobs, and the people getting pinched are generally at the bottom tier schools.

Where are you from originally? If you still want to be a lawyer, your best bet is to retake the LSAT and try to go to a school that is both cheap and strong regionally. You'll need a pretty big improvement on the LSAT, however.

And DF, knock it off.

Desert Fox wrote:

Baseball_2013 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:I mean if you are barely literate, it's a problem bro.

You're absolutely right! I is dumb, "Bro."

Take care and good luck!

Well you are barely getting half right the questions right. You are dumb.

Come on man, lay off him. The LSAT is not the great arbiter of intelligence especially since we know it is so learnable.

OP, there is no way that you have maxed out your score studying for two months w Kaplan. Enroll in a Testmasters orPowerscore or Manhattan LSAT course and do all the homework and tests w them. Also take abt 20 practice tests on your own time under real conditions(ie no breaks except after third section, strict 35 min...actually to improve speed you could practice w 33 min per section but not for now). When you are PTing a few pts above the score you hope to get, then you are ready to take the test.

The vast majority of people struggle w the timing of the LSAT. That is one if the most difficult things abt it. I mean I went to HYP for undergrad and am a very fast reader but still couldn't finish on time without practice. Actually one other strategy that is helpful at the beginning is taking practice tests untimed and focusing on getting every question right and then slowly improving your speed. Also, it is important to spend time understanding why every wrong answer you picked was wrong (like writing a sentence for every question 'A was wrong bc....') and also why the right answer was right for all the ones you got wrong or were uncertain abt but happened to get right.

Anyway you should go to the LSAT forum for more advice. What I wrote is a good starting pt but you could get a lot fancier. Some people might say don't bother w a course(btw do not take Princeton Review or Kaplan course!) But I think for someone starting off w a pretty low score a course will be helpful bc it will survey everything....you won't be done w your studying after the course but you will have a much better idea of what you need to do.

Lastly, you've already heard this a million times here but I will say it again(and I hope you can tell that I care and am not trolling since I spent 20 min typing thus message on my kindle w one finger haha) the schools you are currently considering are not worth your time or money. If one of them was completely free (including living expenses) maybe we could debate it but I would still say no. But they aren't free. They are asking you for 200K+ for a 25-50% chance of getting a job,and most if the jobs available to these grads suck. You have to admit that sounds pretty terrible. Think about what you would tell your sibling or girlfriend if one if them wanted to spend that much for less than a coin fool's chance at a job. But all hope is not lost. If you raise your LSAT to a 160+ you should be able to get close to a full scholarship to an ok school in the region in which you want to practice (hopefully where you have ties). If you get a 170, you will be looking at T14 or big scholarship at T1. Regarding yourGPA if it isn't already set in stone, I'd extend your time in college to bring it over the 3.0 level (once you gave been awarded your first BA no further classes count).

Wormfather wrote:Or Velocity...no love for velocity around here.

Nah it is just that I'm a 3L and never took a course myself so am only vaguely aware of test prep companies....I've heard of velocity and 7sage and blueprint but I don't know enough to recommend them. I didn't even know abt Manhattan LSAT when I was applying but I've seen enough people on here talk abt it to conclude it is good.

Also OP get the powerscore logical reasoning bible and logic games bibles for practice (they'll prob give them to you if you take powerscore's course). I've heard Manhattan LSAT's reading comp book is the best so get that too.

Unfortunately, reading hypos quickly and answering quickly is the most important skill (next to issue spotting) for law school exams. So if you did get into a good school, you'd still struggle with the exams unless you have accommodations, which are super rare in law school. And unfortunately, your class rank will determine your future so it doesn't matter whether or not you'd be a good lawyer, because you probably would never have the opportunity to get that far due to the combination of grades and school, both of which would be influenced by reading slowly.

Judging from what other people have said and what my beliefs are, you really have two good options:

1. Find a different path.

2. Study again, and do it right. There are many untapped resources for you and you could quite feasibly get a 160 or up and get into a reasonable school. The Powerscore Bibles are a good place to start.

I think it's just a matter of what you want to do. But I do think that everyone would be in concurrence when I say that you should not be attending law school with your current numbers.

Best of luck!

somewhatwayward wrote:

Wormfather wrote: Also OP get the powerscore logical reasoning bible and logic games bibles for practice (they'll prob give them to you if you take powerscore's course). I've heard Manhattan LSAT's reading comp book is the best so get that too.

The Powerscore bibles were incredibly helpful for me. There are plenty of threads on TLS saying how great they are.

OP, use these books and they will tell you the "rules" of the LSAT and how to drastically improve your score.

One of the many: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6&t=137979