Top Law Schools

Howdy TLS denizens!

I have a 168 and a 3.88 from a top liberal arts college (fwtw).

What are my chances at the following schools: Columbia, NYU, Penn, and Duke?

Note: Non-URM. I'm still in undergrad, with some internships but no work experience. Sent 4 letters of recs, 1 excellent, others strong. I just sent in my apps on Jan. 2nd, but would love to get some opinions on what to expect from these schools.

Thanks so much!

http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

probably rejected, maybe waitlisted.

TripTrip wrote:http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

Thanks guys for the input! I am applying this cycle so retaking is not an option. I'm hoping to get lucky at at least one of the above schools, with the declining numbers of applicants etc.

swordking90 wrote:

TripTrip wrote:http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

Thanks guys for the input! I am applying this cycle so retaking is not an option. I'm hoping to get lucky at at least one of the above schools, with the declining numbers of applicants etc.

If this is your plan, think about EDing to Penn to help your chances as I doubt RD will get you much $$$ from either of these schools.
http://myLSN.info/946vza


The deadline for Penn ED2 is soon so I would hurry up and get your app in. (I want to say monday but I am not positive.)



Also, think of a February retake. Once you've taken the test once, the time investment needed to retake is substantially less and just a few points higher on the LSAT can change everything about your cycle. You can ask schools to wait to consider your app until you receive your score or you can use the new score to get off of WL.

If you think you have any shot at doing better you should retake. If 168 is pretty much the best you're capable of..... I don't like your chances at any of the schools you mentioned, but a t-14 blanket might get you a hit or two at sticker.

Even with the drop in applications 168 is too low for any of those schools unless you're a URM or have amazing softs. Sit out the cycle and retake. 170+ and you'll at the very least get NYU or Penn.

You don't need to sit out the cycle to retake. You'll probably get wait listed at these schools, so might as well retake. If you get a much better score, you can leverage it into an acceptance and probably even some money. Take this from a guy who did this very thing and is now at one of those schools.

Every single person I personally help through the law school process has not regretted taking the LSAT as many times as possible. Every point you increase can net you 10-15k in scholly money. No joke. It is worth it.

I'd ED Penn if you absolutely won't retake.

I would think probably in at Duke, could possibly get a random acceptance at some of the others but most likely waitlist.

You need to retake and probably shouldn't have waited until this late in the cycle to apply, take in February or June and if you don't score high enough then sit out the cycle, retake in October, and reapply.

BigZuck wrote:I would think probably in at Duke, could possibly get a random acceptance at some of the others but most likely waitlist.

You need to retake and probably shouldn't have waited until this late in the cycle to apply, take in February or June and if you don't score high enough then sit out the cycle, retake in October, and reapply.

Thanks everyone for the encouragements and advice! The reason I'm really reluctant to retake is that I've taken both the October (166) and December (168) LSATs, and with a thesis looming I really don't think I have enough left in the tank to prep for LSAT a third time.

I decided against EDing at UPenn because I'm wary of locking myself into $200,000 of debt. Another reason for that is that I was accepted at Cornell in December with my 166, so I'm at least looking at some possibility of money from a T-14.

Also, BigZuck, you seem to be having an amazing cycle with your numbers! Congrats!

If you get rejected from these schools (and even if you don't), it's a good idea to work for a couple years and retake. Don't settle for Cornell.

Edit: Got into NYU as of 1/17!!!

CONGRATS! See even though people said you wouldn't get in. YOU DID.

Honestly, I've heard a few people say in this forum that strenght of UG does not matter, but I think it does. Same thing happened to me with low numbers.
They can't possibly judge your GPA the same if you come from shitstateU than if you come from a top university.

Just an observation.

Congrats! You really must have had some great softs.

I think TLS wisdom would still want you to retake, unless you think you absolutely maxed out your potential. Two more points and you could get 100K+ at some schools. I got 75k at Duke last year with a 170/.88, and there's probably like 1/3 fewer high-end LSAT scores out there this cycle. Assuming if you pay sticker for NYU you'd be looking at paying all or most of it in loans?

h_jane_w wrote:CONGRATS! See even though people said you wouldn't get in. YOU DID.

Honestly, I've heard a few people say in this forum that strenght of UG does not matter, but I think it does. Same thing happened to me with low numbers.
They can't possibly judge your GPA the same if you come from shitstateU than if you come from a top university.

Just an observation.

Why do you think that?

h_jane_w wrote:CONGRATS! See even though people said you wouldn't get in. YOU DID.

Honestly, I've heard a few people say in this forum that strenght of UG does not matter, but I think it does. Same thing happened to me with low numbers.
They can't possibly judge your GPA the same if you come from shitstateU than if you come from a top university.

Just an observation.

I would guess that this is right, but I don't know the numbers on this. I'd guess both the GPA and LSAT medians for admits from "good" schools are lower than for your typical state school and down, though.

Anecdotally, the Harvard FB group right now has a ton of H & Y, some P & S--if you include liberal arts colleges and the rest of the Ivy League, I would say that takes up at least 1/2 of current members, and if you include all generally well-ranked UGs, that would probably go up over 3/4.

TripTrip wrote:http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

That was a terrible search parameter. Admission requirements are drastically different now than they were even two years ago. If you really want to see if you have a shot use this cycle and last year's cycle.

http://www.mylsn.info/87fd3m

As you can see, OP has a good chance at every school from NYU down, and Columbia shows no rejects only wait lists so OP could get in there too. By good chance I mean >50%.

jvincent11 wrote:

TripTrip wrote:http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

That was a terrible search parameter. Admission requirements are drastically different now than they were even two years ago. If you really want to see if you have a shot use this cycle and last year's cycle.

http://www.mylsn.info/87fd3m

As you can see, OP has a good chance at every school from NYU down, and Columbia shows no rejects only wait lists so OP could get in there too. By good chance I mean >50%.

If you use this year you're going to have an inflated acceptance rate since tons of dings haven't been sent yet.

And grats op

jvincent11 wrote:

TripTrip wrote:http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

That was a terrible search parameter. Admission requirements are drastically different now than they were even two years ago. If you really want to see if you have a shot use this cycle and last year's cycle.

http://www.mylsn.info/87fd3m

As you can see, OP has a good chance at every school from NYU down, and Columbia shows no rejects only wait lists so OP could get in there too. By good chance I mean >50%.

Silly/pointless bump, NYU/Columbia have barely rejected people yet this cycle, sample size issues, and a WL at Columbia basically means a ding anyway because they waitlist everybody.

Just a bad post all around. Don't tell someone that what they posted is "terrible" if you're going to post stuff like this.

BigZuck wrote:

jvincent11 wrote:

TripTrip wrote:http://myLSN.info/he26ln

Have you considered retaking?

That was a terrible search parameter. Admission requirements are drastically different now than they were even two years ago. If you really want to see if you have a shot use this cycle and last year's cycle.

http://www.mylsn.info/87fd3m

As you can see, OP has a good chance at every school from NYU down, and Columbia shows no rejects only wait lists so OP could get in there too. By good chance I mean >50%.

Silly/pointless bump, NYU/Columbia have barely rejected people yet this cycle, sample size issues, and a WL at Columbia basically means a ding anyway because they waitlist everybody.

Just a bad post all around. Don't tell someone that what they posted is "terrible" if you're going to post stuff like this.

Less applicants this year, so this year should be easier or equal to last year, no? And I said terrible search parameters, and that OP "could" get into Columbia, which is very accurate. I think most people would agree 2005-2008 cycles are pretty bad indicators of acceptance chances for people with borderline numbers

Update: Got into Penn in early March (wrote Why Penn) - now waiting on Columbia! Thanks everyone for your advice and encouragements!

h_jane_w wrote:CONGRATS! See even though people said you wouldn't get in. YOU DID.

Honestly, I've heard a few people say in this forum that strenght of UG does not matter, but I think it does. Same thing happened to me with low numbers.
They can't possibly judge your GPA the same if you come from shitstateU than if you come from a top university.

Just an observation.

I know this is an old post, but URM applicants with your numbers are essentially locks for NYU. There was nothing surprising about your results, and there is no reason to resort to your undergrad institution's prestige to explain it.

jvincent11 wrote:
Less applicants this year, so this year should be easier or equal to last year, no? And I said terrible search parameters, and that OP "could" get into Columbia, which is very accurate. I think most people would agree 2005-2008 cycles are pretty bad indicators of acceptance chances for people with borderline numbers

Why are 2005-2008 bad? I thought the 2008-10 cycles were the most competitive, and don't apply to this cycle and the last due to the large decreases in applicants?