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what is your gpa/lsat?

3.3/167, and yes i'm retaking.

I know there is basically a 95% i won't get into a single one this year, but I'm really asking for the next cycle in case i score higher (which seems likely at this point)

T-forteenager wrote:Is this the ED route that maximizes my t14 chances? Am i breaking any of their application rules? I don't wanna piss any admissions officers off...

start off with UVA on september 1st. if I get dinged/wl'ed (which should be within three weeks), then ED Michigan. i should find out Michigan's response by mid-December. at this point, I should ED Georgetown (since there seems to be no ED deadline...)


So my main question is this: Given my goal of maximizing the chances of t14 acceptance, is this the best strategy? And am i breaking any rules here?

Michigan gives no admissions boost to ED applicants. Dean Z intimated as much on her blog last year. You're going about this all wrong. ED only to schools you are willing to attend...without question...and without any financial aid. You may still get some at some schools (e.g. Michigan) but don't count on it.

It sounds like you have healthy expectations. Assuming your of the T14 or bust mentality apply this year not expecting much and see if any of your ED schools bite. If you aren't happy with your results, study like crazy and get 170+ and go into next cycle with more confidence and almost a lock on a few T14.

How are your PTs going? Do you think you can crack 170?

Pt's are progressing smoothly - right now they're at 169. my first score is from college, when I had very very little idea about the whole application process and not much time to prepare. So while the 167 is not from my first attempt at the LSAT, it's pretty fuckin close. Obviously, right now I'm shooting for a 173

The Duck wrote:

T-forteenager wrote:Is this the ED route that maximizes my t14 chances? Am i breaking any of their application rules? I don't wanna piss any admissions officers off...

start off with UVA on september 1st. if I get dinged/wl'ed (which should be within three weeks), then ED Michigan. i should find out Michigan's response by mid-December. at this point, I should ED Georgetown (since there seems to be no ED deadline...)


So my main question is this: Given my goal of maximizing the chances of t14 acceptance, is this the best strategy? And am i breaking any rules here?

Michigan gives no admissions boost to ED applicants. Dean Z intimated as much on her blog last year. You're going about this all wrong. ED only to schools you are willing to attend...without question...and without any financial aid. You may still get some at some schools (e.g. Michigan) but don't count on it.

considering the fact that NYC big law is my target, I'm pretty much ok with anything from MVP down. Cornell is probably most helpful to my goal.

But I'm a bit surprised that Michigan offers no boost for ED applicants. I mean, I believe you. But why even have the binding option for ED? Why not just let have applicants actually apply early - like, literally?

T-forteenager wrote:Pt's are progressing smoothly - right now they're at 169. my first score is from college, when I had very very little idea about the whole application process and not much time to prepare. So while the 167 is not from my first attempt at the LSAT, it's pretty fuckin close. Obviously, right now I'm shooting for a 173

The Duck wrote:

T-forteenager wrote:Is this the ED route that maximizes my t14 chances? Am i breaking any of their application rules? I don't wanna piss any admissions officers off...

start off with UVA on september 1st. if I get dinged/wl'ed (which should be within three weeks), then ED Michigan. i should find out Michigan's response by mid-December. at this point, I should ED Georgetown (since there seems to be no ED deadline...)


So my main question is this: Given my goal of maximizing the chances of t14 acceptance, is this the best strategy? And am i breaking any rules here?

Michigan gives no admissions boost to ED applicants. Dean Z intimated as much on her blog last year. You're going about this all wrong. ED only to schools you are willing to attend...without question...and without any financial aid. You may still get some at some schools (e.g. Michigan) but don't count on it.

considering the fact that NYC big law is my target, I'm pretty much ok with anything from MVP down. Cornell is probably most helpful to my goal.

But I'm a bit surprised that Michigan offers no boost for ED applicants. I mean, I believe you. But why even have the binding option for ED? Why not just let have applicants actually apply early - like, literally?

https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... aspx?ID=35

ED at Michigan means you start summer-start. Due to the timeline, its important to have as many of those people locked in early as you can. She's spoken more directly about the boost effect in-person. Who knows...its possible you get some boost if they need to fill the summer class...but I wouldn't ED in hopes of getting in. At least a few years ago when I checked, the LSN data further supported the lack of boost at Michigan.

Also: https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... aspx?ID=44

The Duck wrote:

T-forteenager wrote:Pt's are progressing smoothly - right now they're at 169. my first score is from college, when I had very very little idea about the whole application process and not much time to prepare. So while the 167 is not from my first attempt at the LSAT, it's pretty fuckin close. Obviously, right now I'm shooting for a 173

The Duck wrote:

T-forteenager wrote:Is this the ED route that maximizes my t14 chances? Am i breaking any of their application rules? I don't wanna piss any admissions officers off...

start off with UVA on september 1st. if I get dinged/wl'ed (which should be within three weeks), then ED Michigan. i should find out Michigan's response by mid-December. at this point, I should ED Georgetown (since there seems to be no ED deadline...)


So my main question is this: Given my goal of maximizing the chances of t14 acceptance, is this the best strategy? And am i breaking any rules here?

Michigan gives no admissions boost to ED applicants. Dean Z intimated as much on her blog last year. You're going about this all wrong. ED only to schools you are willing to attend...without question...and without any financial aid. You may still get some at some schools (e.g. Michigan) but don't count on it.

considering the fact that NYC big law is my target, I'm pretty much ok with anything from MVP down. Cornell is probably most helpful to my goal.

But I'm a bit surprised that Michigan offers no boost for ED applicants. I mean, I believe you. But why even have the binding option for ED? Why not just let have applicants actually apply early - like, literally?

https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... aspx?ID=35

ED at Michigan means you start summer-start. Due to the timeline, its important to have as many of those people locked in early as you can.

Still, though, ED guarantees them a student who will be paying sticker. I can't imagine that it gives you zero boost, though Michigan's ED definitely gives you less of a boost than other schools'. You'll want to be above at least one median though, preferably the LSAT, so best of luck with your retake!

Thanks Duck, I did not know that. Serious reading comphrehension fail on my part

So, for anyone out there who's interested, is the optimal ED Strategy UVA--->Georegtown--->Penn, with an EA to Cornell?

moonman157 wrote:
Still, though, ED guarantees them a student who will be paying sticker. I can't imagine that it gives you zero boost, though Michigan's ED definitely gives you less of a boost than other schools'. You'll want to be above at least one median though, preferably the LSAT, so best of luck with your retake!

If you read that post, they allocate financial aid equally across RD and ED...its done by a formula specifically because Dean Z dislikes this motivation for ED.

T-forteenager wrote:Thanks Duck, I did not know that. Serious reading comphrehension fail on my part

So, for anyone out there who's interested, is the optimal ED Strategy UVA--->Georegtown--->Penn, with an EA to Cornell?

If you want NYC, I'd avoid G-town. There has to be some difference in cost (at least COL) that should help rank your preferences.

The Duck wrote:

moonman157 wrote:
Still, though, ED guarantees them a student who will be paying sticker. I can't imagine that it gives you zero boost, though Michigan's ED definitely gives you less of a boost than other schools'. You'll want to be above at least one median though, preferably the LSAT, so best of luck with your retake!

If you read that post, they allocate financial aid equally across RD and ED...its done by a formula specifically because Dean Z dislikes this motivation for ED.

Gotcha, thanks

The Duck wrote:

T-forteenager wrote:Pt's are progressing smoothly - right now they're at 169. my first score is from college, when I had very very little idea about the whole application process and not much time to prepare. So while the 167 is not from my first attempt at the LSAT, it's pretty fuckin close. Obviously, right now I'm shooting for a 173

The Duck wrote:

T-forteenager wrote:Is this the ED route that maximizes my t14 chances? Am i breaking any of their application rules? I don't wanna piss any admissions officers off...

start off with UVA on september 1st. if I get dinged/wl'ed (which should be within three weeks), then ED Michigan. i should find out Michigan's response by mid-December. at this point, I should ED Georgetown (since there seems to be no ED deadline...)


So my main question is this: Given my goal of maximizing the chances of t14 acceptance, is this the best strategy? And am i breaking any rules here?

Michigan gives no admissions boost to ED applicants. Dean Z intimated as much on her blog last year. You're going about this all wrong. ED only to schools you are willing to attend...without question...and without any financial aid. You may still get some at some schools (e.g. Michigan) but don't count on it.

considering the fact that NYC big law is my target, I'm pretty much ok with anything from MVP down. Cornell is probably most helpful to my goal.

But I'm a bit surprised that Michigan offers no boost for ED applicants. I mean, I believe you. But why even have the binding option for ED? Why not just let have applicants actually apply early - like, literally?

https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... aspx?ID=35

ED at Michigan means you start summer-start. Due to the timeline, its important to have as many of those people locked in early as you can. She's spoken more directly about the boost effect in-person. Who knows...its possible you get some boost if they need to fill the summer class...but I wouldn't ED in hopes of getting in. At least a few years ago when I checked, the LSN data further supported the lack of boost at Michigan.

Also: https://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2 ... aspx?ID=44

Just a few observations: I'm not sure whether the Michigan ED program is meant to fill out the summer-start class or not. Typically less than half of that section is composed of ED applicants (about 45, I take it), so it's just as possible, if perhaps less plausible, that this number serves as a cap on ED admissions rather than a floor. http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestu ... sprocedure (If not, it seems a bit odd that the proportion of EDers in the class would be essentially stable over the years, but maybe I’m reading too much into the ‘typically’.) But, just to be clear, I'm not doubting what you say, only offering an alternative hypothesis. You may have heard this directly from Zearfoss or somebody, in which case I’d be glad to know that this is how it actually works.

And, second, I believe there may be some muddying of terms going on – and probably not on our side. I’m not sure ‘boost’ is a word Zearfoss ever uses – whatever it means exactly – but she does say that an ED gives an applicant an ‘edge’, which she explains briefly in the interview in the link provided. Her point: if you’re plausible as is (read: borderline), the ED can help, otherwise not, which LSN pretty much bears out. So if ‘boost’ means somewhat lower numbers are overlooked, I think on a case by case basis this may happen, but generally not (also as LSN bears out). So, like everyone seems to be saying, it seems wise not to count on it.
For Zearfoss’ comments on the ED ‘edge’ skip to about 4:00 in the interview here: http://lawschoolinteractive.com/applyin ... admission/

culturaln wrote:
Just a few observations: I'm not sure whether the Michigan ED program is meant to fill out the summer-start class or not. Typically less than half of that section is composed of ED applicants (about 45, I take it), so it's just as possible, if perhaps less plausible, that this number serves as a cap on ED admissions rather than a floor. http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestu ... sprocedure (If not, it seems a bit odd that the proportion of EDers in the class would be essentially stable over the years, but maybe I’m reading too much into the ‘typically’.) But, just to be clear, I'm not doubting what you say, only offering an alternative hypothesis. You may have heard this directly from Zearfoss or somebody, in which case I’d be glad to know that this is how it actually works.

And, second, I believe there may be some muddying of terms going on – and probably not on our side. I’m not sure ‘boost’ is a word Zearfoss ever uses – whatever it means exactly – but she does say that an ED gives an applicant an ‘edge’, which she explains briefly in the interview in the link provided. Her point: if you’re plausible as is (read: borderline), the ED can help, otherwise not, which LSN pretty much bears out. So if ‘boost’ means somewhat lower numbers are overlooked, I think on a case by case basis this may happen, but generally not (also as LSN bears out). So, like everyone seems to be saying, it seems wise not to count on it.
For Zearfoss’ comments on the ED ‘edge’ skip to about 4:00 in the interview here: http://lawschoolinteractive.com/applyin ... admission/

If the proportion served as a cap, then ED'ing would have to give no boost correct? They'd take the most attractive of the ED candidates until they hit their number.

I agree there may be some small boost for a truly on-the-fence applicant in that it shows true commitment. However, schools can see ED applications (I remember one of the deans saying this a few years ago.) If true, multiple ED's would kill this benefit.

The filling out the class hypothesis is mine alone.

The Duck wrote:
If the proportion served as a cap, then ED'ing would have to give no boost correct? They'd take the most attractive of the ED candidates until they hit their number.

I agree there may be some small boost for a truly on-the-fence applicant in that it shows true commitment. However, schools can see ED applications (I remember one of the deans saying this a few years ago.) If true, multiple ED's would kill this benefit.

The filling out the class hypothesis is mine alone.

You’re definitely right there’s no way they could uniformly ‘boost’ every EDer into an admission if it were a cap – assuming the number of ED applicants surpasses 45, which seems plausible – which is why I think Zearfoss likes to use the squishier word ‘edge’, and reserves it for individual cases. (It could actually be a uniform boost in some sense: it adds a certain amount to every EDer, but many are too low to be really helped by it.) And you’re right, that does mean it depends on what the app readers would regard as an attractive candidate, which in a few cases may be decided despite a somewhat lower numerical profile, i.e. both numbers just below median. So it’s possible they use that 45 more as a ceiling for EDers than anything like a floor, since it could just be a way of taking some candidates with slightly lower numbers, who otherwise would have gone on the waitlist. But who knows. It would a bit weird, though, if a huge swath of the summer-starters were EDers, like 75-80%; may give off the wrong impression to the rest of the class when they arrive in the fall. So there’s a fair rationale to limit the total ED admits to some number like half of the summer class.

But I think we’re essentially agreeing: it’s not like ED is going to do a facelift on two sagging numbers (so don’t count on it helping), but it may make them look the other way in a few cases if they’re otherwise interested in your application. As I say, I think it’s pretty squishy.