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Thanks for the help!

I've heard of a 171 getting into NYU ED, but that is literally the only instance I know of someone below the LSAT median getting into CLS/NYU without a GPA. Retake if you're serious about Columbia. If you're concerned about money, the answer is to retake so you don't have to ED to have a chance to get in.

You really should retake. The difference between 170 and 173+ for Columbia is huge. You would be almost guaranteed admission with a 173+ score, with a very good chance at scholarship money.

If you ED, do you have a way to pay for law school? You can't get US government loans, and unless you have a substantial US credit history already, you won't be able to get a private loan without a US co-signer.

If I was you, I wouldn't ED unless you can easily pay full-tuition. Nobody knows what will happen next year, with application numbers down so much. You might get offered a lot of money at a lower t14 school.

If you're only willing to consider living in Manhattan, though (which is presumably why you are only considering Columbia + NYU), and you can afford full tuition, you would be best to ED. Based on last year's results, NYU is probably a slightly safer bet than Columbia.

I am an international also and have a similar question. Does the international status and not having a gpa put an applicant at a disadvantage? I have heard some say it does and others say it doesn't.

I have read on tls that a "superior" or "above average" evaluation of GPA by CAS is viewed as equivalent of the median GPA for a top school (that is, actual numerical gpa wouldn't matter). True?

If so a median LSAT score for the school drive the applicant into the accepted pool.

jmjm wrote:I am an international also and have a similar question. Does the international status and not having a gpa put an applicant at a disadvantage? I have heard some say it does and others say it doesn't.

I have read on tls that a "superior" or "above average" evaluation of GPA by CAS is viewed as equivalent of the median GPA for a top school (that is, actual numerical gpa wouldn't matter). True?

If so a median LSAT score for the school drive the applicant into the accepted pool.

International students not disadvantaged in the sense that your not having a GPA is frowned upon, but it can be slightly disadvantageous had you had a GPA equivalent to something like a 4.0 you lose that above-median factor in applying.

Basically, your numbers will be judged only on your LSAT score as that is the only thing that the school will be forced to disclose.

Puffin wrote:

jmjm wrote:I am an international also and have a similar question. Does the international status and not having a gpa put an applicant at a disadvantage? I have heard some say it does and others say it doesn't.

I have read on tls that a "superior" or "above average" evaluation of GPA by CAS is viewed as equivalent of the median GPA for a top school (that is, actual numerical gpa wouldn't matter). True?

If so a median LSAT score for the school drive the applicant into the accepted pool.

International students not disadvantaged in the sense that your not having a GPA is frowned upon, but it can be slightly disadvantageous had you had a GPA equivalent to something like a 4.0 you lose that above-median factor in applying.

Basically, your numbers will be judged only on your LSAT score as that is the only thing that the school will be forced to disclose.

That sounds reasonable- as lsat score is the only numerical assessment the school has - but is it what international applicants experience in reality?

This would mean that an international applicant with 173 lsat will have a good shot at H. From a few experiences that internationals have shared on this forum, it seems that an international with 173 lsat has a far worse chance at Harvard than someone with median LSAC gpa and 173 lsat, all other things being equal.

Someone who is above both medians is going to have a better chance of getting in because they can raise that school's median. So yes in theory if there's an international with a 173 and a traditional with a 172 4.0 the latter will have an advantage because of that potential for median-boosting GPA. Which is what I was trying to get to in my earlier post, you're disadvantaged if you would have had an at or above median GPA but it is an advantage if you have a sub-median GPA.

Overall, a 173 international is definitely not barred from H but would have a more difficult time than a traditional with the median GPA; and I agree with you.

Hello,
Similar position, 170 LSAT (First time round) was wondering my chances at Stanford? Obviously sitting bang in the middle of their LSAT medians, but no US GPA.. My options if not Stanford would be re-take or settle for UMich/UPenn, is this realistic?
Thanks

Pazman wrote:Hello,
Similar position, 170 LSAT (First time round) was wondering my chances at Stanford? Obviously sitting bang in the middle of their LSAT medians, but no US GPA.. My options if not Stanford would be re-take or settle for UMich/UPenn, is this realistic?
Thanks

Interested to know this as well. Based on what I have heard here, you should be seen as a "median" in both gpa and lsat.

Pazman wrote:Hello,
Similar position, 170 LSAT (First time round) was wondering my chances at Stanford? Obviously sitting bang in the middle of their LSAT medians, but no US GPA.. My options if not Stanford would be re-take or settle for UMich/UPenn, is this realistic?
Thanks

Do you have significant work experience, or any other interesting backgroud? If no, I would say no chance. SLS usually admit only one "true international" each cycle, and most of them hold PHD degree.
UM is somehow unpredictable. I know several true internationals ranged from 168-175 got rejected by UM in last cycle. But someone with 166 got in two years ago.
UPenn will likely WL you, unless with an ED.

True international here with a 168. Latina. No PhD.
Applied last cycle. ED at Northwestern (eventually rejected after classes started)
From the T14: in at NYU, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell, all with money.
Rejected at YS and waitlisted at H until beginning of classes.
I really think your whole application matters (resume, PS, supplemental essays..)
Good luck!

what's a true international?

I'll second that a 170 can get you in at NYU or Columbia, but the rest of your application has to be impressive.
If you blanket the T14, you'll probably get scholly money somewhere.

On the other hand, if you can retake for a higher score, a few extra points can move you from the maybe pile to probably

Thanks very much for all your responses.

I'm still 2 (possibly 3) cycles away from when I will submit applications, so I think I will re-take. The main reason I was asking was the incredulous response from friends/family when I mentioned I will probably re-take (170 would probably get me a very large scholarship at my local law school), and was starting to feel like maybe I should just settle for 170.

I genuinely feel like I have a decent chance at scoring in the 175 range (which I guess the majority of re-takers think), as my first test was the first time I'd used my brain properly for 2 years and also had unfavorable test conditions (retard asking questions in the last 10 minutes of RC section loudly next to me). Was also starting to feel tempted to settle with a lower t-14 school, rather than push for a t-6, but as time is on my side, I think it would probably be worth putting in the work.

Also in regards to work experience, what kind of work do they look at favorably (I'm second-year ECON/MGMT major)?

Thanks guys

jmjm wrote:what's a true international?

International without US GPA.

Pazman wrote:Thanks very much for all your responses.

I'm still 2 (possibly 3) cycles away from when I will submit applications, so I think I will re-take. The main reason I was asking was the incredulous response from friends/family when I mentioned I will probably re-take (170 would probably get me a very large scholarship at my local law school), and was starting to feel like maybe I should just settle for 170.

I genuinely feel like I have a decent chance at scoring in the 175 range (which I guess the majority of re-takers think), as my first test was the first time I'd used my brain properly for 2 years and also had unfavorable test conditions (retard asking questions in the last 10 minutes of RC section loudly next to me). Was also starting to feel tempted to settle with a lower t-14 school, rather than push for a t-6, but as time is on my side, I think it would probably be worth putting in the work.

Also in regards to work experience, what kind of work do they look at favorably (I'm second-year ECON/MGMT major)?

Thanks guys

You should try that. Retaking doesn't cost much.

IB or consulting will look good. Or you may spend some time in law firm as a paralegal.

How it comes that you dont have US GPA but have a "local law school"?

Melbourne Law requires you sit the LSAT to apply

BKB wrote: You should try that. Retaking doesn't cost much.

IB or consulting will look good. Or you may spend some time in law firm as a paralegal.

How it comes that you dont have US GPA but have a "local law school"?

There are a lot of foreign countries that now have schools offering a JD, but require more classes to practice locally. For example, Hong Kong has 3 schools offering a JD, but an additional year long course called a PCLL is required to practice locally as a lawyer/solicitor.

Pazman mentioned U of Melbourne. I think UNSW, Sydney Tech and U of Sydney also offer JD programs. No idea what it takes to practice in Australia though.

Verloren wrote:

BKB wrote: You should try that. Retaking doesn't cost much.

IB or consulting will look good. Or you may spend some time in law firm as a paralegal.

How it comes that you dont have US GPA but have a "local law school"?

There are a lot of foreign countries that now have schools offering a JD, but require more classes to practice locally. For example, Hong Kong has 3 schools offering a JD, but an additional year long course called a PCLL is required to practice locally as a lawyer/solicitor.

Pazman mentioned U of Melbourne. I think UNSW, Sydney Tech and U of Sydney also offer JD programs. No idea what it takes to practice in Australia though.

Sure. But Hong Kong JD programs do not require LSAT.
Interesting to learn that Australian law schools use a US exam as an admission requirement.

BKB wrote:

Verloren wrote:

BKB wrote: You should try that. Retaking doesn't cost much.

IB or consulting will look good. Or you may spend some time in law firm as a paralegal.

How it comes that you dont have US GPA but have a "local law school"?

There are a lot of foreign countries that now have schools offering a JD, but require more classes to practice locally. For example, Hong Kong has 3 schools offering a JD, but an additional year long course called a PCLL is required to practice locally as a lawyer/solicitor.

Pazman mentioned U of Melbourne. I think UNSW, Sydney Tech and U of Sydney also offer JD programs. No idea what it takes to practice in Australia though.

Sure. But Hong Kong JD programs do not require LSAT.
Interesting to learn that Australian law schools use a US exam as an admission requirement.

I guess it lends a bit more credibility to the Law School, as it makes the selection process more difficult and not so dependent on your GPA. Also, I'm pretty sure Melbourne is the only Law School in Australia that requires it for some reason.

Pazman wrote:

BKB wrote:

Verloren wrote: There are a lot of foreign countries that now have schools offering a JD, but require more classes to practice locally. For example, Hong Kong has 3 schools offering a JD, but an additional year long course called a PCLL is required to practice locally as a lawyer/solicitor.

Pazman mentioned U of Melbourne. I think UNSW, Sydney Tech and U of Sydney also offer JD programs. No idea what it takes to practice in Australia though.

Sure. But Hong Kong JD programs do not require LSAT.
Interesting to learn that Australian law schools use a US exam as an admission requirement.

I guess it lends a bit more credibility to the Law School, as it makes the selection process more difficult and not so dependent on your GPA. Also, I'm pretty sure Melbourne is the only Law School in Australia that requires it for some reason.

Only U Melb. All the others I've looked at don't require LSAT, just LOR and GPA. However, there's the problem of leaving Aus and going somewhere else with that degree.

@Pazman - I'm aware that none of the HK JD programs require a LSAT. It was one of the reasons why I was looking at them (along with the cheap tuition).

So let me get this straight, LSAC doesn't assign/convert true international transcripts into a GPA? And then schools will mainly only consider my LSAT?

I tried asking this before but didn't get much of a response.

onionskin wrote:So let me get this straight, LSAC doesn't assign/convert true international transcripts into a GPA? And then schools will mainly only consider my LSAT?

I tried asking this before but didn't get much of a response.

Yes. You GPA matters little.

Damnit. I should've signed up for Dec.

On a positive note, the amount of effort required to finish our degrees just decreased...