Top Law Schools

Hello,

I'd really appreciate advice on whether I should retake the LSAT and what my chances are at the T14 schools. I'll have worked for 2 years as a paralegal at a top law firm, I have strong college ECs, a 3.75 GPA at one of the lower ranked ivies and a 167 LSAT score. I see this LSAT score as a problem. I was hoping to get in the 170s, and had in PTs before, but my PT median was 167 so this score isn't really a surprise.

I understand this situation isn't some super splitter or unique tale of intrigue, but I do really appreciate any advice you can give! Thank you!
Max

Yeah, retake.

Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?

MaxLSH123 wrote:Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?

Yes. Cut all of those percentiles in half, at least. Duke and NU are a lot less likely than that. Do a search on LSN for non-URMs with your numbers and apps to the T14. It's ugly

167 is no man's land for T14. Without a really really high GPA, you're locked out of the T14. Cornell *might* be an exception

..

If you are T14 or bust, of course you should retake in October. You are not a lock at Georgetown or Cornell either.

Thanks for the advice. My friends who applied last cycle had exceptional stats, and they're the ones giving me advice, so they may be overly positive about the whole process.

TMC116 wrote:

MaxLSH123 wrote:Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?

Yes. Cut all of those percentiles in half, at least. Duke and NU are a lot less likely than that. Do a search on LSN for non-URMs with your numbers and apps to the T14. It's ugly

167 is no man's land for T14. Without a really really high GPA, you're locked out of the T14. Cornell *might* be an exception

This is false. OP, I had stats very, very similar to yours and I got into two T14s. You are not by any means locked out of the T14, especially if you apply ED. That said, if you could retake and gain 2-3 points you'd be in a much better position.

Thanks buckilaw, congrats on the acceptances

Are you an underrepresented minority? If you are, then your chances may be a bit better than you think.

If you're not, then I don't think your chances are particularly strong at any of the T14. As you indicated, Georgetown and Cornell are the most likely to bite, but even there your odds probably stand at 50:50. You may have a small shot at Northwestern or Berkeley, but I suspect that Northwestern prefers to stock up on 170 LSAT candidates and Berkeley would probably want a higher GPA.

Of the remaining T14, your GPA is below median at everywhere other than NYU and Columbia, both of which have LSAT 25th percentiles that are far above 167. Your LSAT is below median at all of the T14, and hovering at the 25th percentile for many. As a general rule, you need to be above median for at least one of your GPA or LSAT in order to be considered competitive.

As everyone else has suggested, you should retake in order to maximize your chances. However, you should also realize that your chances only become significantly better if you score a 170+ on a retake (not because it's 2+ points better than your old score, but because many schools seem to have a 170 LSAT threshold). If you think you're only likely to score between 167-169 on your retake, it's probably not worth it.

LOL @ being 100% lock into Cornell/Gtown when you are below the LSAT median.

potl wrote:Are you an underrepresented minority? If you are, then your chances may be a bit better than you think.

If you're not, then I don't think your chances are particularly strong at any of the T14. As you indicated, Georgetown and Cornell are the most likely to bite, but even there your odds probably stand at 50:50. You may have a small shot at Northwestern or Berkeley, but I suspect that Northwestern prefers to stock up on 170 LSAT candidates and Berkeley would probably want a higher GPA.

Of the remaining T14, your GPA is below median at everywhere other than NYU and Columbia, both of which have LSAT 25th percentiles that are far above 167. Your LSAT is below median at all of the T14, and hovering at the 25th percentile for many. As a general rule, you need to be above median for at least one of your GPA or LSAT in order to be considered competitive.

As everyone else has suggested, you should retake in order to maximize your chances. However, you should also realize that your chances only become significantly better if you score a 170+ on a retake (not because it's 2+ points better than your old score, but because many schools seem to have a 170 LSAT threshold). If you think you're only likely to score between 167-169 on your retake, it's probably not worth it.

Solid advice. Though if you apply as is I'd add that Michigan and Berkley are also worth considering because they tend to be more holistic than other T14s.

buckilaw wrote:

TMC116 wrote:

MaxLSH123 wrote:Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?

Yes. Cut all of those percentiles in half, at least. Duke and NU are a lot less likely than that. Do a search on LSN for non-URMs with your numbers and apps to the T14. It's ugly

167 is no man's land for T14. Without a really really high GPA, you're locked out of the T14. Cornell *might* be an exception

This is false. OP, I had stats very, very similar to yours and I got into two T14s. You are not by any means locked out of the T14, especially if you apply ED. That said, if you could retake and gain 2-3 points you'd be in a much better position.

Yeah, that's bullshit. Multiple friends w/ pretty much exact same #s in at Michigan, Cornell, and Gtown

You have a solid chance at Cornell and maybe 50/50 odds at GULC. You also have maybe a bit under 50/50 shot at Michigan and perhaps an outside shot at Berkeley or NU.

You have no chance at any other T14 unless you raise your LSAT. Get a 170 and you'll be in at UVA as they are complete and utter median whores. You will also have a good shot at Penn.

Probably need 171+ before you can start talking about Columbia or Chicago.

I do think you're in at Cornell, though they might not get back to you with an admissions offer right away.

3.7 167 here reject at gtown umich uva columbia
wait list at cornell
i wouldn't say 100 percent any where

Search on lawschoolnumbers.com

Your chances are not that great. Your only realistic shots at T14 are Michigan, Cornell, Berkeley, and Georgetown, and you'd do much better if you retook.

soj wrote:Search on lawschoolnumbers.com

Your chances are not that great. Your only realistic shots at T14 are Michigan, Cornell, Berkeley, and Georgetown, and you'd do much better if you retook.

I agree. Retake. Even two points would make a huge difference.

But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

Nothing

inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

It won't matter. Schools only care about the highest score.

TMC116 wrote:

inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

Nothing

top30man wrote:It won't matter. Schools only care about the highest score.

TITCR. Basically no down side except lost time/cash. The upside could be exponential.

Nova wrote:

TMC116 wrote:

inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

Nothing

top30man wrote:It won't matter. Schools only care about the highest score.

TITCR. Basically no down side except lost time/cash. The upside could be exponential.

The Michigan Admissions blog has a post saying it could ruin an otherwise flawless application. What if you are currently at median. How do you know they really just look at the best?

inthebeginning wrote: The Michigan Admissions blog has a post saying it could ruin an otherwise flawless application. What if you are currently at median. How do you know they really just look at the best?

Despite what schools claim, everyone whores themselves to USNWR

tfleming09 wrote:

inthebeginning wrote:The Michigan Admissions blog has a post saying it could ruin an otherwise flawless application. What if you are currently at median. How do you know they really just look at the best?

They all say shit like this. Many schools still say they average scores. There's no evidence of that being true.

And what is the evidence of it NOT being true?