161/2.65, TT chances Forum

[rma]

Before everyone tells me to re-take, I've tried that and just can't overcome the anxiety. Also, I need to go to law school next year, so re-taking again isn't an option. I'd rather hedge my bets at going to a TT, working my ass off, and finishing in the top 5-10%.

Goal is IP biglaw.

Major: Engineering
GPA: 2.65 (2.84)
School: Large Public/B10

LSAT: 161

Schools:
-Chicago-Kent
-Loyola Chicago
-DePaul
-Santa Clara
-U Denver
-U New Hampshire

Thanks in advance.

[RaleighStClair]

I can't speak as to whether going to the schools you get into is worth it, but I guess that's not what you're asking. Since I have nearly identical numbers to you, I'll bite.

I applied to three of the schools on your list:
Rejected at Santa Clara
Accepted to Denver w/ no money
Accepted to DePaul with $$

[law4vus]

Serious question, and I don't mean to be a douche because I know how test anxiety feels.

But - if you can't get over the anxiety of taking the LSAT, how are you going to be able to do well enough on a law school exam to get to the top 5-10 percent of a TT? Not to mention law school grading is almost random anyway, so "hedging your bets" isn't really the correct terminology here.

[rma]

Serious question, and I don't mean to be a douche because I know how test anxiety feels.

But - if you can't get over the anxiety of taking the LSAT, how are you going to be able to do well enough on a law school exam to get to the top 5-10 percent of a TT? Not to mention law school grading is almost random anyway, so "hedging your bets" isn't really the correct terminology here.

That's a very valid question, but I suppose for me, it just comes down to having faith in what I think I am capable of. I've always succeeded in every non-math or science course I have ever taken. I have never done well on standardized tests.

I've talked to a number of people in law school who continually tell me that the LSAT is a horrible tool in predicting law school success. I know people who are doing quite well in law school right now, despite not getting the best LSAT score.

As far as law school grading randomness, I can't really comment on that but it's something I'll look into at the schools I've applied.

I've thought this through quite a bit. I understand the risks that come with going to a TT, and I don't really expect to convince anyone on TLS that I'll be successful because quite frankly, based on my GPA and my LSAT score, why would anyone who doesn't know me believe in me?

I'll just say that I believe in myself, and we'll leave it at that.

[sunynp]

It's great to have confidence. Just have a back- up plan for if you do t make top 5 to 10%. You can't get top 10% simply by working hard. Read some of the posts in the how to improve next semester thread or am I unemployable because I got a c thread. All of these people worked hard.

I guess the best thing to focus on is reducing your debt.

[rma]

It's great to have confidence. Just have a back- up plan for if you do t make top 5 to 10%. You can't get top 10% simply by working hard. Read some of the posts in the how to improve next semester thread or am I unemployable because I got a c thread. All of these people worked hard.

I guess the best thing to focus on is reducing your debt.

Agreed. I'm not planning on going to any of these schools at sticker, and I suppose if I do horribly I could just look for a job since I actually have a degree in something useful.

But anyways, can we get back on topic and could people please assess my chances at the schools I'm applying to? I've checked LSN, but there aren't many people with similar stats. Either lower GPA or slightly higher LSAT.

Thanks.

[pillowpet]

Your GPA really hurts your chances in getting into a school liek Santa Clara or Kent. The others might take a shot just because of the LSAT score. Are you applying to their FT programs? I'd suggest applying to PT programs because it'll be a lot easier to gain admission. Also, the lighter load will help you.

I'm glad you're confident in your abilities, but you should not expect to be in the top 10% going into law school. There are many bright people that were given scholarships to attend that school. Don't you think they will be equally motivated to bust their ass off to get high marks also? Point is, everyone in law school is motivated and will work their ass off to get to the top.

[rma]

Thanks for your input.

I have only applied for FT admission for a a variety of reasons, the biggest being that I'm not employed so applying for PT didn't make a lot of sense.

I understand that getting to the top 5-10% won't be easy, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. The way I see it is that most people attending these schools are in a similar situation, otherwise they'd be going to better schools, and well... somebody has to be in the Top 10%, right?

Look, I fully understand the potential risks that I'm taking here. If I go to one these schools, and am not in the Top 10%, my options will be very limited. And while I'm not guaranteeing anything, I am confident that if I work hard, I'll do well. All I can do is try, and after the first semester if it doesn't pan out, I'll re-assess my options.

Kent is my ideal choice right now, but I feel like I'm on the border there. According to LSN people with my my LSAT have gotten in, but have slightly higher GPAs, and also these are people with slightly lower GPAs that I have slightly higher LSAT scores so I don't really know what to expect.

I hope my engineering background and interest in IP give me a bump, but I'm not counting on it.

Can anyone else comment on my chances at all the schools I mentioned?

[pillowpet]

Law school predictor says
santa clara- deny
kent - deny
denver - deny
depaul - weak consider

for part time programs
santa clara - consider
kent - consider
denver - consider
depaul - strong consider

why not consider part-time programs? with your numbers you have a shot at getting into some decent ones. On the other hand, there's a high chance that you'll get shut out from all those schools if you straight up apply to their FT programs. plus, you don't need to have a job to justify going into a part-time program either, admission offices have told me that it's not unusual if 80% of the part time class doesn't have a job. also, u can alwyas transfer to the full time program after one year and still graduate in the usual 3 years.

[rma]

Pillowpet,

Are you a 0L?

Everything that I have read and seen on law school numbers show that the predictor is horrible at assessing splitter chances.

[pillowpet]

Yes, I am a 0L. so what?

Look, I'm just trying to offer my opinion and some advice. With your GPA and LSAT you have a slim chance of getting accepted to Kent or Santa Clara. You'll probably have to fight through a waitlist to be accepted too. Even if you look at LSN and the prior cycles you will rarely see anyone being accepted with your numbers. If they were, it is likely that they were a URM or had some exception, such as an add'l degree. Maybe youre one of those exceptions? Nevertheless, it is going to be very difficult for you to get into the FT programs at Kent or Santa Clara. That's why i wanted to bring up the PT option for you to consider.

You'll probably get accepted to the other schools aside from Kent and Santa Clara. But you say your goal is IP Biglaw. Even with kent or SCU, the chances at biglaw are pretty damn small. So, going to a depaul or something might not even be worth it.

Best of luck on your cycle! Hopefully, you can prove me wrong and get accepted to kent or scu : )

[rma]

I know the chances are slim, unless you rank in the top 5-10% of the class, and I'll do everything I can to meet that goal because I think I am more than capable of it.

Best of luck to you this cycle, as well!

[mountaintime]

everyone wants to be / thinks they'll be top 10%. everyone around you will be just as smart and hard working as you are. top 10% is a stupid thing to bank on.

[Norwood]

Top 10% for biglaw from a T2? I wish it was that easy. You should be aiming for top 5%...good luck with that.

I don't think you should discount your future classmates. As a few have noted earlier, they are going to be just as motivated as you are. You do know law school courses are curved right? That not everyone can get A's no matter how high they'll all score on an exam? and even if you think you're capable, and you work your ass off, there is still the possibility that you just don't "get" law school exams. But "doing everything [you] can" is the best someone can do in law school. So good luck and remember to work hard.

as for the chances...
-Chicago-Kent (out)
-Loyola Chicago (out)
-DePaul (in)
-Santa Clara (WL)
-U Denver (in)
-U New Hampshire (in)

[YourCaptain]

[rma]

Thanks, guys!

Fully aware of the curve, skimmed through the student handbook at all the schools I'm applying to.

I know my plan seems crazy, but I'd rather go for it than do something else and continually think of what may have been.

[law4vus]

I know my plan seems crazy, but I'd rather go for it than do something else and continually think of what may have been.

I don't think anyone is saying "don't go to law school". They're saying don't go with your current numbers. Take the LSAT again, get a 168+, and you're good at at least WUSTL.

Your current plan IS crazy because you're taking a huge risk with a relatively low chance of succeeding. I'm not saying you can't do it because I don't know you, but the odds are not in your favor.

If anything, it's more likely that a little over a year from now, you'll be looking back and wishing you took the LSAT one more time and gotten into a good T1. I hope I'm wrong, I truly do. But again, the odds are just not in your favor.

[rma]

I would re-take again, but I just don't find sitting another year is an option.

I tried getting a 168+ for WUSTL (love that school--originally from St. Louis), but it just didn't work out. In fact, I was consistently PTing 168-170 before the real thing, and just bombed the actual thing.

I'll see how this cycle goes. I've heard of people getting $$ at Kent with similar numbers. I understand if the odds aren't in my favor, but it's a risk I may be willing to take if I'm not going to school at sticker.

[mountaintime]

LSP sucks for splitters, but LSN is ridiculously useful for super splitters (I was one too).

Even with your GPA (at least how I remember it... things may have changed a little),
165+ = IUB, GMU,
166+ = W&L, Emory
167+ = Illinois
168+ = WUSTL
172+ = Northwestern

splitters with scores before 164 or so seem to have a really tough time because there are lots of scores in that range; schools just don't need you in order to get their median up.

[mattviphky]

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/FB2011/jd

fyi. plus, he applied late in the cycle as well. I know you say you are capable, and I'm glad you're confident...and no, the LSAT is not a great indicator of law school success. But that's the world we live in, if you want to win you gotta play by the rules. Bitching about how the lsat, or urm, or whatever else is unfair will not help you, no matter how correct you may be. I'm not directing this towards you specifically, but to anyone who feels so indignant about the lsat that they refuse to study hard. So while you may be right about the LSAT, you have zero credibility because of your GPA. If you had a 3.65 I would see your point, but with a 2.65, you kinda seem like you are making excuses and trying to tell yourself that you will be in the top 5%. I'm a 0L, but I'm sure that law school is much different from undergrad, in that there are only 250 students who took on a serious amount of debt, and who know that their job search is directly influenced by law school success. All 250 of these students will be gunning to be in the top 5%, there is much less slacking than there was in undergrad. This is all speculation on my part, but if the average student at DePaul is taking on like 100k in debt, I'm going to assume that s/he will be busting ass to make a return on that investment (or I would hope so). Studying, retaking sucks. But it is worth it. Totally worth it.

Now if i were you, I would send out my apps, and register for June for the hell of it. If you do better, good, cross that bridge when you come to it. If not, oh well, you are probably in somewhere. Some schools will even increase scholly amount based on june lsats, cuz they fear you might withdraw...and some just do it to help you out (regional state schools). Good luck.

[rma]

Now if i were you, I would send out my apps, and register for June for the hell of it. If you do better, good, cross that bridge when you come to it. If not, oh well, you are probably in somewhere. Some schools will even increase scholly amount based on june lsats, cuz they fear you might withdraw...and some just do it to help you out (regional state schools). Good luck.

I may just do this. We'll see. Either way I am very appreciative of the advice.

I am not trying to make excuses, I know I should have done better in undergrad, maybe I should have majored in something else. I can't explain why I am confident, and I don't expect anyone here to understand, but I jut am.

I agree, re-taking in June may not be a bad idea, if for no other reason than to try and increase scholly totals.

[thorntonjm2]

My personal opinion - and that is one going on only the information provided - is that you have the right mindset. I like the recommendation to apply as usual, but retake just for the pure reason of seeing if you can score higher - this might reduce some of the anxiety as an added benefit.

I am in a similar position in that I am not willing to give up a years salary, even if it means bumping up the ranks from top 50 school to a top 30 school, to retake the LSAT. To me law school is what you make of it: I understand there is tough competition- and that should not be discounted- but having confidence in your abilities to succeed both in the classroom and out should not be overlooked either as long that confidence is not just in spirit. I am a 0L but have made an effort to nurture relationships with partners at two different biglaw firms, both of which whom have told me that if I graduated and passed the bar that I had a job waiting if I so choose - they are not concerned with where I go (within reason lol). Point being, if you really want to go biglaw, go where it makes the most sense, aim for top 5% (shoot, aim for top 1% ha), and if that doesn't work out, there are other avenues for achieving those goals outside of the classroom (networking, ect).

Bottom line: No one here can tell you how risky it is for you to go to a certain school because they don't know your situation or your life goals. While the predictors provide a nice baseline, they often do not account for intangibles (although some may argue that high scores are correlated with those intangible, but thats another story).

I realize this is not an answer to your question, but some of the responses to your thread kind of set me off. Good luck in your cycle!

[rma]

My personal opinion - and that is one going on only the information provided - is that you have the right mindset. I like the recommendation to apply as usual, but retake just for the pure reason of seeing if you can score higher - this might reduce some of the anxiety as an added benefit.

I am in a similar position in that I am not willing to give up a years salary, even if it means bumping up the ranks from top 50 school to a top 30 school, to retake the LSAT. To me law school is what you make of it: I understand there is tough competition- and that should not be discounted- but having confidence in your abilities to succeed both in the classroom and out should not be overlooked either as long that confidence is not just in spirit. I am a 0L but have made an effort to nurture relationships with partners at two different biglaw firms, both of which whom have told me that if I graduated and passed the bar that I had a job waiting if I so choose - they are not concerned with where I go (within reason lol). Point being, if you really want to go biglaw, go where it makes the most sense, aim for top 5% (shoot, aim for top 1% ha), and if that doesn't work out, there are other avenues for achieving those goals outside of the classroom (networking, ect).

Bottom line: No one here can tell you how risky it is for you to go to a certain school because they don't know your situation or your life goals. While the predictors provide a nice baseline, they often do not account for intangibles (although some may argue that high scores are correlated with those intangible, but thats another story).

I realize this is not an answer to your question, but some of the responses to your thread kind of set me off. Good luck in your cycle!

Thanks for your support! Best of luck to you as well this cycle!

[anmar213]

I have a much worse GPA and got into some of those schools with money.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Anmar/jd

[rma]

I have a much worse GPA and got into some of those schools with money.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Anmar/jd

Thanks.