... Forum

[emly]

....

[Philosopher King]

Don't waste the money for the application fees for a T14, that's my advice. You have a median GPA for these schools but it's all LSAT and an LSAT score less than 160 just won't cut it. There are a lot of Tier 2 schools that you could get accepted to with scholarship money though I bet. Good luck!

[Grizz]

Sure, apply to T14, but you're almost assuredly not getting in. You're actually not gonna get into many schools worth going to, period. Sucks, but that's the game.

See lawschoolnumbers.com

[rebexness]

[emly]

wait it out and retake. Study like a boss.

My goal, with similar starting numbers, is to eventually end up with my GPA being the "hindrance" and not my crummy LSAT score.

Thanks all for the advice. I know my chances for T14 are slim to none given my current stats but ultimately that's where I want to end up. I don't want to rush the process given the current poor job prospects attached to a T2 or T3. I am leaning toward delaying my cycle (finding a new job, perhaps) and going for a retake next year. However i've already taken the LSAT three times. Even though I'd PT'ed in the upper 160s toward the end, I lacked consistency in studying due to an intense workload at my job. My diagnostic was a 163 without any prep. I understand I will have to change my study strategy and be close to sure of getting a high LSAT score on a 4th retake; I'm kicking myself in the butt for not being completely badass hardcore about my test prep and letting other things get in my way. So I guess my questions are this ---

- how do I go about procuring a fourth retake in my situation (LSAC registration does not permit me to sign up for June 2012 which I'd want to do and apply early next year)?
- how will a fourth retake be looked upon by T14 schools ad comms if I'm able to score upper 160s/lower 170s? Fyi, all my previous scores were 150s, with a four point differential b/w highest and lowest.
- is it worth applying this year if my goal is to retake upon a rejection?

[rebexness]

[crumpetsandtea]

You have no shot at the T14. I hate to say it, but it's just the way admissions works. There's absolutely no chance. Even if your LSAT was 10 points higher, it would still be an uphill battle to get into NYU.

We need to know a few things:
- How did you study? (Prep course? Self study? Any books? Tutors? How long?)
- How many PTs did you do?
- What was your range of PTs (exact #s) and what was your PT average (exact #)
- How did you review your PTs?
- What are your worst LSAT sections?
- What was your diagnostic score?

My suggestion is: keep working. If you REALLY WANT to go to law school, then keep studying for the LSAT. DO NOT RETAKE until you are testing CONSISTENTLY in the mid 170s (range of something like 168-177, average of anywhere from 173-175). You would be wasting your 4th retake if you sold yourself short and took it too early. With a 177, you'll probably get into a T10 with $$$, and you can shoot off some apps to HYS for the hell of it. If you get a 173, you're looking @ RD admission to a T6 school, maaaybe with a little $ but maybe not. If you get a 168, you're looking at maybe a reverse splitter-friendly T14 (Cornell, Duke) or a T20 school (WUSTL, UMN, Vandy, UCLA). As it is now, you'll probably get locked out of most schools worth going to.

[emly]

I am 4th retaking in October.
If you want to retake before you are eligible I think you have to get waivers from schools. I'd aim for october and really study your tail off and get your apps in when Oct scores are released.

did your two year period already lapse? are you planning to study any differently?

[emly]

We need to know a few things:
- How did you study? (Prep course? Self study? Any books? Tutors? How long?)
- How many PTs did you do?
- What was your range of PTs (exact #s) and what was your PT average (exact #)
- How did you review your PTs?
- What are your worst LSAT sections?
- What was your diagnostic score?

I studied on my own. Last year before the Dec 2010 administration, I studied for one to hours, most days of the work week, after 10 hour workdays. I was pretty mentally exhausted by 7:30 in the evening but usually took one or two practice sections and reviewed Powerscore for LR and LG. After my abysmal Dec 2010 score, I decided it'd be best to delay a year for this cycle.

I signed up for Oct 2011 and my study was interrupted again by work commitments. I tried doing some practice tests of weekends to simulate a full-length tests but only started that about a month before the exam. I also did smaller timed sections on some weekdays. I noticed that I never had time to finish sections with confidence, running out of time frequently with LG and RC, so tried to work on my speed. Although I was improving, especially on LR, I still hadn't mastered it by Oct. In preparation of the Dec 2011 test, I didn't drastically change my study strategies but tried to do more timed sections and some full length practice ones.

My worst LSAT sections for the Dec 2011 were LG and RC. I ran out of time for both.
- 12 LG (ugh)
- 9 RC (this is not unusual for me)
- 4 both LRs (all came after Q #20 which I think also indicates a problem with speed and timing)

I would say in my PTs I went through some earlier ones and PTs 50 - 62.

I am really interested in public interest law and would definitely like to pursue that. I'd only take the LSAT again if I committed months to studying (including FL timed PTs) and was consistently in the 170s range. I am just hoping a Berkeley, NYU or NWU (these are my top three) would overlook the fact that I have a fourth retake.

Any advice on how to change my studying? Also, would I just call/email admissions at my ideal law school and ask for them about getting a waiver for a fourth retake?

[crumpetsandtea]

I studied on my own. Last year before the Dec 2010 administration, I studied for one to hours, most days of the work week, after 10 hour workdays. I was pretty mentally exhausted by 7:30 in the evening but usually took one or two practice sections and reviewed Powerscore for LR and LG. After my abysmal Dec 2010 score, I decided it'd be best to delay a year for this cycle.

I signed up for Oct 2011 and my study was interrupted again by work commitments. I tried doing some practice tests of weekends to simulate a full-length tests but only started that about a month before the exam. I also did smaller timed sections on some weekdays. I noticed that I never had time to finish sections with confidence, running out of time frequently with LG and RC, so tried to work on my speed. Although I was improving, especially on LR, I still hadn't mastered it by Oct. In preparation of the Dec 2011 test, I didn't drastically change my study strategies but tried to do more timed sections and some full length practice ones.

My worst LSAT sections for the Dec 2011 were LG and RC. I ran out of time for both.
- 12 LG (ugh)
- 9 RC (this is not unusual for me)
- 4 both LRs (all came after Q #20 which I think also indicates a problem with speed and timing)

I would say in my PTs I went through some earlier ones and PTs 50 - 62.

I am really interested in public interest law and would definitely like to pursue that. I'd only take the LSAT again if I committed months to studying (including FL timed PTs) and was consistently in the 170s range. I am just hoping a Berkeley, NYU or NWU (these are my top three) would overlook the fact that I have a fourth retake.

Any advice on how to change my studying? Also, would I just call/email admissions at my ideal law school and ask for them about getting a waiver for a fourth retake?

Hmmm okay, gotcha. I can't help with getting a 4th retake, since I've never tried before so I don't have any idea what the process is like, but I CAN try to help with a potential study plan.

It seems like timing is your biggest issue, which is not the worst thing in the world to have an issue with. You have a smart take on studying (RE: only retaking if you know you have the time). It seems like what you're missing is a solid foundation - aka, familiarity with the questions. The LSAT is, in many ways, pretty standardized.

You didn't mention what specific non-PT materials you used to study, but assuming you haven't already gone through them, I would highly recommend buying the Powerscore LG and LR bibles, and the Manhattan RC Guide. Go through all 3 of these first, to give yourself a good understanding of the different sections. Then the next step (before doing more PTs) is to practice, practice, practice!!!! Drill the SHIT out of all the sections. Start untimed, and work on accuracy. If you're already at near-100% accuracy, THEN work on timing.

For timing - start by timing yourself without restrictions (to see how long it takes you), then move on to restricted timing. Once you are getting high accuracy while using restricted timing, then start doing timed sections/PTs. With PTs, start with 35 min/section, and then progress to 30 min once you have the hang of the normal timing. Doing 30 minute sections means that on the day of the test (when inevitably nerves slow you down), you'll be used to having a time crunch and those 35 minutes will feel like a blessing, not a curse (:

Check out the LSAT Blog for monthly and weekly schedules that might be helpful for your studying! You should be able to get -12 on LG, it is an extremely learnable section. The key to LG is (again) practice! Just like math, there are 'formulas' and tricks that you can use to apply to ALL games to make them easy. Eventually, diagramming a game should be like second nature to you. And this is coming from someone who SUCKS at math

RC was my hardest section - I went, on average, -4 on it even when I was scoring in the mid to upper 170s. A lot of people will tell you that it 'varies by person', but I disagree. I think RC can definitely be learned. There are common themes between all RC sections that you can pick up and use to your advantage. I would recommend NOT making marks (except the occasional underline/asterisk, if you find it necessary). Just remember that ALL THE ANSWERS are in the passage. Very rarely will they ask you a question that goes outside the passage itself. You have all the answers right in front of you, it's just a matter of spotting them.

Anyway, I hope this was helpful for you! The PS Bibles are GREAT tools, and will help a lot, I promise! Don't settle for anything but -0 in LG Best of luck and I hope you get that 17X (and that I see you at Northwestern eventually )

[Funkycrime]

Good post crumpet.

[emly]

Thanks very much crumpets. I think I'm going to apply to some T30 schools this cycle and see what I get. If nothing pans out, I'll petition LSAC for a 4th retake and study my ass off.