Are GPAs really looked on equally between schools? Forum

[crazi4law]

Do Adcoms really treat a 3.9 from ASU as roughly the same as a 3.9 from Cornell? Because I know kids from state schools and it is so unbelievably easy to get good grades there. It just seems unfair to applicants from tough schools.

[kalvano]

Yes. Search more.

[Curious1]

Yes. Search more.

Actually if you searched more, you would find the answer to be no.

[Bildungsroman]

Do Adcoms really treat a 3.9 from ASU as roughly the same as a 3.9 from Cornell? Because I know kids from state schools and it is so unbelievably easy to get good grades there. It just seems unfair to applicants from tough schools.

Sorry your tough school didn't give you the good sense to use the search function.

[crazi4law]

Wouldn't it be a smart idea to transfer to a state school in that case?

[Bildungsroman]

Wouldn't it be a smart idea to transfer to a state school in that case?

I wouldn't wish your presence on any of my fellow public university students.

[KevinP]

Excluding some exceptions, most of which are used in tiebreakers anyway, the answer is yes. Also, a 3.9 in engineering from ASU will almost surely be harder to obtain than a 3.9 in Political Science from Cornell. The LSAT is the great equalizer.

Wouldn't it be a smart idea to transfer to a state school in that case?

Contrary to your anecdotal evidence, multiple studies document that private schools are far more notorious for grade inflation. Anna Ivey's book makes mention of this fact.

[Bildungsroman]

OP goes to USC? http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=161267

looooooooooooooool. I've heard USC is super hard dooder.

[Applying_Late]

In general, I don't think the GPAs are differentiated. I do think that having a good university on your resume certainly helps. So say you are a Princeton student majoring in English applying to Yale with a 4.0 and a 180, and Yale just so happened to receive an applicant with the same exact numbers from University of BumbleFuck. If nothing else differentiated the two of you, you'd probably have the upper hand if you were coming from Princeton.

As an aside, I've been to both a state school and an ivy. It was harder to earn a good grade in the state school. Generally speaking (and of course exceptions exist), the better ranked your school, the easier it is on its undergraduates. (Exceptions could be Princeton, Harvey Mudd, certain engineering programs, or programs that are known within each school to be considered "tough.") Regardless, when you get into a top law school, you'll have plenty of kids that were from state schools, and they will outperform the kids who were prepped at elite schools are their lives. If you continue with this logic, you might post in a year or two complaining about how the students who graduated from state school and are now in your class had an easier exam--they must have because an alum of a state school cannot possibly have scored better than you....

[lats19nys]

students from better schools do get a bit of a bigger boost. I had deans from upenn, michigan, duke, stanford, nyu, cornell all say this when they came to my school. I mean, they're going to look at your LSAT score also to see if that gpa could have been earned at other schools. And I love the stupid remarks about gpa inflation. No fool, studies have not shown that grade inflation is more prevalent at private schools. What they have shown possibly is that there are higher grades in elite private schools. To demonstrate that grade inflation is more prevalent at private vs public schools, you would have to demonstrate that grades have risen by a higher percent at those schools and also have to account for what exactly are the true abilities of students at all institutions. And yes, there's a reason why at Ivies, we do have smarter kids. It's not an accident. And it's also not an accident that our schools average in the mid 160s for LSAT scores. GOD....merry xmas.

[lats19nys]

also trust me, premed and engineering at elite schools, including ivies, is much harder. There's a reason why orgo (i know it's feared on all campuses) at my school for example routinely fails about 1/2 the kids the first time they take it.

[Tiago Splitter]

And yes, there's a reason why at Ivies, we do have smarter kids. It's not an accident.

[Applying_Late]

I feel like this is something difficult to argue about--it's basically a relativist argument/he-said-she-said.

Oddly I went to an HYP, and I've taken orgo there and at a state school. Orgo was harder at the state school. In addition I've compared the exams from the undergraduate courses, and frankly they were harder. I have also compared the math exams from my state school and HYP, and HYP is certainly more difficult there. Again, it seems to me that these carps are difficult--or at least tedious--to prove (i.e. posting transcripts from both the state and ivy schools, comparing exams and syllabi, and scouring the internet for articles that either "disprove" or "prove" this point)....

Also, I agree with you that the general population of undergrads at ivies might be "better" than the students from the state schools (and the ivy environment is certainly more conducive to get the best out of you), but I think the top 10 percent of most state schools can compete with the ivies. Lastly, if it's of any merit, I don't see the point of being so dismissive of kids from state schools; they are also human beings and one day they might outshine you....

OP, to complain about the "ease" of grades of school is futile. Do your best, score well on the LSAT, and you will be rewarded.

also trust me, premed and engineering at elite schools, including ivies, is much harder. There's a reason why orgo (i know it's feared on all campuses) at my school for example routinely fails about 1/2 the kids the first time they take it.

[ben4847]

whats orgo

[Applying_Late]

Organic Chemistry, and often a make-it-or-break-it class for aspiring physicians.

whats orgo

[indo]

students from better schools do get a bit of a bigger boost. I had deans from upenn, michigan, duke, stanford, nyu, cornell all say this when they came to my school. I mean, they're going to look at your LSAT score also to see if that gpa could have been earned at other schools. And I love the stupid remarks about gpa inflation. No fool, studies have not shown that grade inflation is more prevalent at private schools. What they have shown possibly is that there are higher grades in elite private schools. To demonstrate that grade inflation is more prevalent at private vs public schools, you would have to demonstrate that grades have risen by a higher percent at those schools and also have to account for what exactly are the true abilities of students at all institutions. And yes, there's a reason why at Ivies, we do have smarter kids. It's not an accident. And it's also not an accident that our schools average in the mid 160s for LSAT scores. GOD....merry xmas.

5 of my school friends went to Ivies ( Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Darmouths and Cornell ) but their GPA and SAT are much lower than mine.
They got accepted to Ivies because of sports and URM.
I am sure at least 50% of Ivies have lower GPA nd SAT

So not every Ivies students are that smarts.

[lats19nys]

I feel like this is something difficult to argue about--it's basically a relativist argument/he-said-she-said.

Oddly I went to an HYP, and I've taken orgo there and at a state school. Orgo was harder at the state school. In addition I've compared the exams from the undergraduate courses, and frankly they were harder. I have also compared the math exams from my state school and HYP, and HYP is certainly more difficult there. Again, it seems to me that these carps are difficult--or at least tedious--to prove (i.e. posting transcripts from both the state and ivy schools, comparing exams and syllabi, and scouring the internet for articles that either "disprove" or "prove" this point)....

Also, I agree with you that the general population of undergrads at ivies might be "better" than the students from the state schools (and the ivy environment is certainly more conducive to get the best out of you), but I think the top 10 percent of most state schools can compete with the ivies. Lastly, if it's of any merit, I don't see the point of being so dismissive of kids from state schools; they are also human beings and one day they might outshine you....

OP, to complain about the "ease" of grades of school is futile. Do your best, score well on the LSAT, and you will be rewarded.

also trust me, premed and engineering at elite schools, including ivies, is much harder. There's a reason why orgo (i know it's feared on all campuses) at my school for example routinely fails about 1/2 the kids the first time they take it.

Well, i'm glad you really took the time to read what I wrote. I made it clear to one kid that his general remarks were ridiculous. I didn't dismiss public schools students. I completely agree, your reading skills, clearly illustrates that there are clearly many ivy league students who aren't very bright as well. Good point. What a douchebag.

[lats19nys]

Again, can you guys read? Like I said generally, on average, the ivies have smarter kids. Jeez. Please read carefully. It's a skill that will help on the LSATs.

[ben4847]

Organic Chemistry, and often a make-it-or-break-it class for aspiring physicians.

whats orgo

Oh. I was really good at that in high school. Maybe I should have been a doctor. oh well.

[lats19nys]

And yes, i totally agree by the way. There are way too many dumb athletes (i wish they were at least athletic) and URM at ivies. I mean ivies average 11-13 percent in athletes alone. But that's not exactly 50 percent. And frankly, prob 1/3 to 1/4 of the athletes are actually genuinely smart and gifted people and so are many of the URM. So i'm glad you automatically associate being an athlete and URM with being stupid. I'm glad there are people like you in the world.

[KevinP]

students from better schools do get a bit of a bigger boost. I had deans from upenn, michigan, duke, stanford, nyu, cornell all say this when they came to my school.

Deans aren't necessarily as holistic as they claim, and if they do give a boost, it's marginal at best and unlikely to be used as anything outside of a tiebreaker.

No fool, studies have not shown that grade inflation is more prevalent at private schools. What they have shown possibly is that there are higher grades in elite private schools.

From a study:
Average GPA = 2.8 +0.005*SEL + (if school is private add 0.2)
Average GPA = 2.8 + 0.001*(SATMV-850) + (if school is private add 0.1)
where SATMV is the combined average Math and Verbal SAT score of students and SEL is a selectivity measure that
represents the average of the percentage of students with high school GPAs above 3.75, the percentage of students who
graduated in the upper 10% of their high school class, and the percentage of student applicants rejected.
The above two equations suggest that private schools are grading 0.1 to 0.2 higher on a 4.0 scale for a given talent level of student.
Source: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=15928

Again, can you guys read? Like I said generally, on average, the ivies have smarter kids. Jeez. Please read carefully. It's a skill that will help on the LSATs.

The same could be said for you; I'm not arguing that IVY league schools don''t have smarter kids on average. I'm arguing against the notion that an IVY league student would have a higher GPA at a state school.

EDIT: Q fix

[lats19nys]

students from better schools do get a bit of a bigger boost. I had deans from upenn, michigan, duke, stanford, nyu, cornell all say this when they came to my school.

Deans aren't necessarily as holistic as they claim, and if they do give a boost, it's marginal at best and unlikely to be used as anything outside of a tiebreaker.

No fool, studies have not shown that grade inflation is more prevalent at private schools. What they have shown possibly is that there are higher grades in elite private schools.

From a study:
Average GPA = 2.8 +0.005*SEL + (if school is private add 0.2)
Average GPA = 2.8 + 0.001*(SATMV-850) + (if school is private add 0.1)
where SATMV is the combined average Math and Verbal SAT score of students and SEL is a selectivity measure that
represents the average of the percentage of students with high school GPAs above 3.75, the percentage of students who
graduated in the upper 10% of their high school class, and the percentage of student applicants rejected.
The above two equations suggest that private schools are grading 0.1 to 0.2 higher on a 4.0 scale for a given talent level of student.
Source: http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentID=15928

Again, can you guys read? Like I said generally, on average, the ivies have smarter kids. Jeez. Please read carefully. It's a skill that will help on the LSATs.

The same could be said for you; I'm not arguing that IVY league schools don''t have smarter kids on average. I'm arguing against the notion that an IVY league student would have a higher GPA at a state school.

How about you limit that study to "elite schools". If you're doing that with all public/private debate, that's clearly different given the high number of private schools. It seems silly to me that you're comparing basically all public/private schools and using that data to talk about a small group of institutions that are quite unique even in their own subset. Silly if you ask me.

[Applying_Late]

I don't know what you got out of that disparaging remark; but, if it made you feel any better, then I suppose it was worth it.

I did read your post. Perhaps I had trouble understanding what you were trying to say....

I feel like this is something difficult to argue about--it's basically a relativist argument/he-said-she-said.

Oddly I went to an HYP, and I've taken orgo there and at a state school. Orgo was harder at the state school. In addition I've compared the exams from the undergraduate courses, and frankly they were harder. I have also compared the math exams from my state school and HYP, and HYP is certainly more difficult there. Again, it seems to me that these carps are difficult--or at least tedious--to prove (i.e. posting transcripts from both the state and ivy schools, comparing exams and syllabi, and scouring the internet for articles that either "disprove" or "prove" this point)....

Also, I agree with you that the general population of undergrads at ivies might be "better" than the students from the state schools (and the ivy environment is certainly more conducive to get the best out of you), but I think the top 10 percent of most state schools can compete with the ivies. Lastly, if it's of any merit, I don't see the point of being so dismissive of kids from state schools; they are also human beings and one day they might outshine you....

OP, to complain about the "ease" of grades of school is futile. Do your best, score well on the LSAT, and you will be rewarded.

also trust me, premed and engineering at elite schools, including ivies, is much harder. There's a reason why orgo (i know it's feared on all campuses) at my school for example routinely fails about 1/2 the kids the first time they take it.

Well, i'm glad you really took the time to read what I wrote. I made it clear to one kid that his general remarks were ridiculous. I didn't dismiss public schools students. I completely agree, your reading skills, clearly illustrates that there are clearly many ivy league students who aren't very bright as well. Good point. What a douchebag.

[lats19nys]

I love stats as much as the next guy. I love sports and as any sports junkie love all the numbers involved. Not a crazy sabermatrician (i probably spelled that wrong) but you can't be a sports fan these days without being a fan of numbers. However, it pisses me off how so many people use stats without thinking about how it was compiled. It amazes me how many times people misread data and scream bloody murder when you examine the study/facts and it turns out exactly the opposite way.

[lats19nys]

I don't know what you got out of that disparaging remark; but, if it made you feel any better, then I suppose it was worth it.

I did read your post. Perhaps I had trouble understanding what you were trying to say....

I feel like this is something difficult to argue about--it's basically a relativist argument/he-said-she-said.

Oddly I went to an HYP, and I've taken orgo there and at a state school. Orgo was harder at the state school. In addition I've compared the exams from the undergraduate courses, and frankly they were harder. I have also compared the math exams from my state school and HYP, and HYP is certainly more difficult there. Again, it seems to me that these carps are difficult--or at least tedious--to prove (i.e. posting transcripts from both the state and ivy schools, comparing exams and syllabi, and scouring the internet for articles that either "disprove" or "prove" this point)....

Also, I agree with you that the general population of undergrads at ivies might be "better" than the students from the state schools (and the ivy environment is certainly more conducive to get the best out of you), but I think the top 10 percent of most state schools can compete with the ivies. Lastly, if it's of any merit, I don't see the point of being so dismissive of kids from state schools; they are also human beings and one day they might outshine you....

OP, to complain about the "ease" of grades of school is futile. Do your best, score well on the LSAT, and you will be rewarded.

also trust me, premed and engineering at elite schools, including ivies, is much harder. There's a reason why orgo (i know it's feared on all campuses) at my school for example routinely fails about 1/2 the kids the first time they take it.

Well, i'm glad you really took the time to read what I wrote. I made it clear to one kid that his general remarks were ridiculous. I didn't dismiss public schools students. I completely agree, your reading skills, clearly illustrates that there are clearly many ivy league students who aren't very bright as well. Good point. What a douchebag.

Good point.