Top Law Schools

Stats

GPA: 3.43
LSAT: 178
GMAT: 770 (not sure if this helps balance out the GPA)
Personal: non-URM non-caucasian male

Work experience: investment banking analyst at top 3 investment bank for 1 year

Key assumptions: 99.9 percentile writer, 99.999 percentile bullshitter, average to decent LORs, decent undergrad extracurriculars (a couple of president/founder roles)

If you could give me my realistic chances, both with and without work experience (debating whether to apply without work experience or after working for 1-2 years). Ideally I'd go for HYS and C (for geographical reasons), if not then I may consider taking another top tier school that can place the upper third or more of their class into V10/20/50 firms. Otherwise, the relative payoff (an aggregate of economic and self-actualization return on invested time) of staying with my current path would probably be greater in the medium to long run.

Also any other info I could give to help your evaluation I'm happy to provide.

Thanks guys in advance.

Might want to get work experience, because you're certainly not a lock by any means at those schools.

Your GPA is too low for HYS. GMAT doesn't mean anything. Columbia seems somewhat more likely, but not assured. Good shot at lower T10.

HYS probably have a shot but not great.


A friend of mine with almost your exact #'s (3.5 instead of 3.43) got rejected from HY and into Columbia with 10k/yr and into everything below.

Decent chances at CCN and strong shot at MVP but you won't get HYS most likely

I thought Columbia had a pretty strict gpa floor at 3.5. Also, you have zero chance at YHS, so if you don't mind paying sticker at C, I would definitely ED. Don't know if this will make a difference considering your low gpa

I'm confused.... are you working at an investment bank, have an offer already, or just expect to get an offer this fall? Also, with that GPA you have a very slim chance at HYS. Columbia is a good shot, but not great.

Great numbers.

Zero chance at HYS, almost certainly in at NYU. Columbia is more likely than Chicago for people with our mediocre GPAs.

Given your geographic desires Penn would make sense as it consistently does well in Biglaw placement. The below chart gives you an idea of how things were in the absolute best of times (80% V100 for Columbia )

lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/03/vault-50-placement.html

balls....

Would more work exp (say 3-4 years) be helpful at all for HYS? Or let's say hypothetically I climbed Everest in order to raise money for sick baby elephants in Africa or something, would that change the situation at all? Or is the 3.43 pretty much an automatic ding?

Also, I'm assuming a bump to 180 wouldn't improve my chances even marginally?

Wow, Columbia is looking reaaally good

To your question: I just started working a month or so ago, but I'm considering doing something else with my time instead of pulling 100 hour weeks for a year. If I had a reasonable shot at one of my targets, then maybe I'd considering doing that.

Zero shot at HYS. C (guessing Columbia?) may be possible.

flowww wrote:balls....

Would more work exp (say 3-4 years) be helpful at all for HYS? Or let's say hypothetically I climbed Everest in order to raise money for sick baby elephants in Africa or something, would that change the situation at all? Or is the 3.43 pretty much an automatic ding?

Also, I'm assuming a bump to 180 wouldn't improve my chances even marginally?

Wow, Columbia is looking reaaally good

To your question: I just started working a month or so ago, but I'm considering doing something else with my time instead of pulling 100 hour weeks for a year. If I had a reasonable shot at one of my targets, then maybe I'd considering doing that.

If 100 hour weeks are not your style, maybe you want to find something entirely different to do with your time. Like applying for a teaching certificate.

On that note, why not stick it out for a short while and jump to pe, b school, corporate finance, etc? Or is law school something you are really dying to do?

flowww wrote:if not then I may consider taking another top tier school that can place the upper third or more of their class into V10/20/50 firms. Otherwise, the relative payoff (an aggregate of economic and self-actualization return on invested time) of staying with my current path would probably be greater in the medium to long run.

Wait so you're saying you've done the EV calculations and found that it is only worth it for schools that place primarily into the V10/20/50 but not primarily into the V100 or the NLJ250?

Listen man, fuck going to law school. Being a banker will net you way more money. Also, MBAs are way better in terms of flexibility than JDs. HBS>>>HLS.

Don't go. Columbia is definitely not worth it for you.

bk187 wrote:

flowww wrote:if not then I may consider taking another top tier school that can place the upper third or more of their class into V10/20/50 firms. Otherwise, the relative payoff (an aggregate of economic and self-actualization return on invested time) of staying with my current path would probably be greater in the medium to long run.

Wait so you're saying you've done the EV calculations and found that it is only worth it for schools that place primarily into the V10/20/50 but not primarily into the V100 or the NLJ250?

lol +1

flowww wrote:Work experience: investment banking analyst at top 3 investment bank for 1 year

If you've been working at GS/BlackRock/similar firm already and have made it for a year, applying to law school with a 3.43 GPA is a big mistake imo if you're only considering ROI (your "an aggregate of economic" return). If you want law school for altruistic reasons ... it'd make more sense.

I agree with one of the above posters... HBS >>> HLS in your scenario. You'd also have a much better shot at HBS with your 770 GMAT with 1 year WE at an elite tier ibank. B-Schools care a lot less about your UG GPA.

Your inconsistency re work experience makes me think this is a flame.

Also, This:

Wait so you're saying you've done the EV calculations and found that it is only worth it for schools that place primarily into the V10/20/50 but not primarily into the V100 or the NLJ250?

"economic and self-actualization return" + ORM = this guy is probably just a prestige whore, not necessarily flame.

haha

thanks, appreciate all the advice

I haven't worked for one year - see my previous post - I mentioned that I started a month and a half ago in July. I'm at GS/MS/JPM. Btw BlackRock is not an investment bank bro, I think you mean Blackstone advisory.

I'm interested in law, but I'm also a prestige whore. Hence the HYS, V10

and to your question: yes

You want to jump to a V10 firm, because you don't like i-banking hours? Wat.

flowww wrote:haha

thanks, appreciate all the advice

I haven't worked for one year - see my previous post - I mentioned that I started a month and a half ago in July. I'm at GS/MS/JPM. Btw BlackRock is not an investment bank bro, I think you mean Blackstone advisory.

I'm interested in law, but I'm also a prestige whore. Hence the HYS, V10

and to your question: yes

ahh makes sense. I may be wrong about blackrock/blackstone... it's been a while since I worked in finance. I thought MS lost it's prestige status after the whole citi MS/SM merger.

prestige whore makes sense. Good luck with V10, with all sincerity, you do seem like an intelligent person.

I stand by my advice to look into HBS over HLS (stick the 100 hr weeks out where you are because like the other posters have been hinting, V10 firms will be no different and your work will likely be more dull than the stuff you're doing now). You'd have a fighting shot at HBS after a year at GS/MS/JPM imo.

you have no shot at HYS with that gpa.

Listen, friend. I suspect what's happened is, you just figured out that the real world sucks. You think that it's just i-banking, but it's not. It's everything. Everything sucks. There might be a few things that don't suck, but they either a) require decades of experience or b) pay $20k/year. Grin and bear it at your unpleasant job, then get your MBA. If you get into HBS/Kellogg/Wharton, try out a few JD classes and see if you're still "interested in the law" and if you are, you'll be a hyper employable, V10-worthy JDMBA. If you realize along the way that law sucks, you'll still be in a great position.

I'd caution IAFG's statement on hyperemployable because law firms sometimes see dual degree candidates as unworthy risks.

ahduth wrote:You want to jump to a V10 firm, because you don't like i-banking hours? Wat.

People at V10's don't work i-banking hours. My brother, as a summer at one of the three firms mentioned by the OP, came into work at 6:30 am and left sometimes as late as midnight. He got most weekends off, but was dead tired from the workweek. Lawyers might work these hours for short bursts at a time, but not consistently like bankers do.

Law = work cuts into your social life.
Banking = work cuts into your sleep.

rayiner wrote:

ahduth wrote:You want to jump to a V10 firm, because you don't like i-banking hours? Wat.

People at V10's don't work i-banking hours. My brother, as a summer at one of the three firms mentioned by the OP, came into work at 6:30 am and left sometimes as late as midnight. He got most weekends off, but was dead tired from the workweek. Lawyers might work these hours for short bursts at a time, but not consistently like bankers do.

Law = work cuts into your social life.
Banking = work cuts into your sleep.

Depends on the firm I think... I'm an assistant right now at a fairly predominant law firm and there are definitely more than a hand full of young associates here who work from 6:00 am until past midnight as well.

A lot of us have also heard about the skadden associate who's death at 32 was most likely related to stress due to law firm work... http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-th ... associate/ in case you haven't.