William and Mary/UVA Forum

[Avisron]

First, I could specify that the situation in calculating my GPA is a little bit foggy.

Basically, when I was in high school, I took a few pre-calculus classes as Dual Enrollment through a community college that I never actually attended otherwise. My father was incredibly sick (near death) during this time period (which I'll explain in other admissions materials,) and I made D's in both classes.

I am a Virginia resident and I attend the University of Virginia's College at Wise as a History major. My current GPA at UVA-Wise is a 3.55 and strongly rising, and I expect it to be at or over a 3.65 by graduating. That number, 3.65, seems to be the sweet spot for UVA and William and Mary, especially with a strong LSAT.

The only problem is those aforementioned D's. They'll bring my official LSDAS GPA down to around a 3.5. I don't want to sound like I'm making a big deal about this, because I know there have been people who got cancer or who forgot to submit a test or whatever and it sunk them to like a 3.0. I get that. I understand that the difference in a 3.65 and a 3.5 isn't that substantial... but will that sink me? I'm sort of a type A personality. It just seems that any admissions council will see I have a pretty good record otherwise.

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165, and I haven't studied for it at all. Take that as you will, but I doubt I'll break 170.

Soft factors: I interned for a United States Senator (a Virginia one) last summer and can intern there again anytime I want. I have to work at a grocery store to keep my IMPOVERISHED (literally below the poverty line, like $11,000 total income) family above water, I have some teachers who are like best friends who can write me some GREAT letters of recommendation... My soft factors = win, I think.

So, anyone care to take a guess? I know this isn't the typical post with just numbers. Sorry about that.

Thanks, everyone.

[sundance95]

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165

Can't tell your chances until you have an LSAT. If you do well on the LSAT (170+) your GPA shouldn't hold you back.

[Avisron]

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165

Can't tell your chances until you have an LSAT. If you do well on the LSAT (170+) your GPA shouldn't hold you back.

I figured that would be the respond. I understand it's hard to predict without it, but I'd still like to have some idea.

Like I said, I really don't think I will get over a 170.

So with an LSAC GPA of 3.5, an actual undergraduate GPA of 3.65, and an LSAT of, let's estimate here, 167, so I have a marginal shot/a decent shot/a good shot at these schools?

Sorry it's so imprecise. I really need to just take the damn test.

[5ky]

Interning for a senator means almost nothing.

[sundance95]

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165

Can't tell your chances until you have an LSAT. If you do well on the LSAT (170+) your GPA shouldn't hold you back.

I figured that would be the respond. I understand it's hard to predict without it, but I'd still like to have some idea.

Like I said, I really don't think I will get over a 170.

So with an LSAC GPA of 3.5, an actual undergraduate GPA of 3.65, and an LSAT of, let's estimate here, 167, so I have a marginal shot/a decent shot/a good shot at these schools?

Sorry it's so imprecise. I really need to just take the damn test.

[Moxie]

lawschoolnumbers.com

Nobody here will be able to give you anything other than their analysis of UVA's admissions data, might as well check it out yourself and make your own judgments.

Being in-state will be helpful, but getting a LSAT score above 170 would dramatically increase your odds.

[ndirish2010]

3.5/167 will get you into W&M, but no shot at UVA. You need a 170 for UVA.

[FlanSolo]

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165, and I haven't studied for it at all. Take that as you will, but I doubt I'll break 170.

First of all, everyone else is right that you have to take the test. But let me get this straight ...you've taken (what sounds like) a handful of practice tests at 165, have not studied at all, and don't think you can break 170? It sounds like there's a lot of other stuff going on in your life, but if you're coming in raw at a 165, I would encourage you very strongly to at least practice minimally and learn some technique. There's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to break 170 - even if you started at a much lower number - and there is no reason you shouldn't try because it could mean a big difference in the amount of debt you have to shoulder. I'm not sure about UVA, but at W&M a 170 and a 3.5 would get you some serious cash. For someone who is working at a grocery store to keep your family afloat, that's probably an important consideration.

[Avisron]

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165, and I haven't studied for it at all. Take that as you will, but I doubt I'll break 170.

First of all, everyone else is right that you have to take the test. But let me get this straight ...you've taken (what sounds like) a handful of practice tests at 165, have not studied at all, and don't think you can break 170? It sounds like there's a lot of other stuff going on in your life, but if you're coming in raw at a 165, I would encourage you very strongly to at least practice minimally and learn some technique. There's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to break 170 - even if you started at a much lower number - and there is no reason you shouldn't try because it could mean a big difference in the amount of debt you have to shoulder. I'm not sure about UVA, but at W&M a 170 and a 3.5 would get you some serious cash. For someone who is working at a grocery store to keep your family afloat, that's probably an important consideration.

Whoa, really? I was under the impression that around a 170 and a 3.5 would barely get me into W&M, so I wasn't expecting cash to even be in play.

Oh, I'll definitely practice some. I just don't, and I'm not really sure why, really think I'll break 170. Maybe it's lingering confidence issues, I don't know.

[FlanSolo]

Whoa, really? I was under the impression that around a 170 and a 3.5 would barely get me into W&M, so I wasn't expecting cash to even be in play.

Oh, I'll definitely practice some. I just don't, and I'm not really sure why, really think I'll break 170. Maybe it's lingering confidence issues, I don't know.

Definitely check out LSN: http://wm.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/?whichCycle=1011

At 165/3.5 it looks like most people get waitlisted, but W&M doesn't get a whole lot of 170s. It looks like one person on there at 170/3.5 got $18K per year. Don't let confidence hold you back. If you're starting at 165 you should really be able to kick the LSAT's ass.

[ndirish2010]

167 and up with a decent GPA and you'll get a nice scholly from W&M...they come attached with a 8-10 hr work requirement though.

[AP-375]

Sent you a private message...

[JamMasterJ]

Since you're a VA resident, if you hit the median, you can get ED much more easily than an OOSer. neither a 3.65 nor a 3.5 is above median, so it won't make a huge difference

[Avisron]

Thanks again, everyone.

I guess what just blows my mind with this whole thing is that people are basically saying that 170/3.5 is almost a lock at W&M and would get me quite a bit of money, but a 166/3.5 is totally up in the air, or a strong reach at best.

[FlanSolo]

Thanks again, everyone.

I guess what just blows my mind with this whole thing is that people are basically saying that 170/3.5 is almost a lock at W&M and would get me quite a bit of money, but a 166/3.5 is totally up in the air, or a strong reach at best.

Welcome to the cruel and capricious world of law school admissions. Thanks US News!

[RVP11]

How is 3.65 the "sweet spot" for UVA? That's .2 below their median.

[Avisron]

How is 3.65 the "sweet spot" for UVA? That's .2 below their median.

Calm down, bro. In case it wasn't clear enough, I was mostly talking about William and Mary. I've always known UVA was a reach.

I don't feel like making a new thread, but what about American University? My numbers match up pretty well for them, right?

Do firms hire fairly deep into American's class?

[ndirish2010]

Don't go to American unless it is close to free.

[Avisron]

Don't go to American unless it is close to free.

Why? Honest question. Just because it's obscenely expensive relative to its status, or because it doesn't have good career prospects?

Okay, here's my situation. I want to be in Northern or Eastern Virginia, or DC. So I've looked at GWU, American, Richmond (which I love, but am concerned about career wise,) and W&M.

I would also go to UNC or Wake Forest, though.

[AP-375]

dude, don't sell yourself short. With you gpa and LSAT potential, aim for W&M or higher.

[Avisron]

dude, don't sell yourself short. With you gpa and LSAT potential, aim for W&M or higher.

If I get into William and Mary, I'm going there. I'd maybe go to George Washington if I got in there, though.

[TheZoid]

Oh, LSAT. I haven't taken it yet, but every practice test and released tests puts me at least around a 165

Can't tell your chances until you have an LSAT. If you do well on the LSAT (170+) your GPA shouldn't hold you back.

I figured that would be the respond. I understand it's hard to predict without it, but I'd still like to have some idea.

Like I said, I really don't think I will get over a 170.

So with an LSAC GPA of 3.5, an actual undergraduate GPA of 3.65, and an LSAT of, let's estimate here, 167, so I have a marginal shot/a decent shot/a good shot at these schools?

Sorry it's so imprecise. I really need to just take the damn test.

As the great Mike Ditka once said, if you don't think you can, you never will. No reason you can't crack 170 starting at a 165. I started at 151 diagnostic and then went 158 168 on real tests. Taking again in October gunning for 170+. Some practice and familiarity with the LSAT can go a long way. No way you can't do it. Sounds like you've been through a lot, reward yourself with a nice scholly or admission to a top school in UVA. Best of luck to you.