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LSAT 180 / GPA 3.5. Choosing between CLS, NYU, and Berkeley. Considering deferring for a year.

1. Could it be rational, instead, to accept no spots this year and reapply next year with more relevant research experience and a more focused PS, in the hopes of cracking HYS?

I am interested in legal academia, and attending these schools would obviously be a great plus. Even if (a big if) I were actually in a good enough position to transfer after IL (i.e. in top 5-10% of the class), I understand that there would be drawbacks to transferring to HYS (hard or impossible to get onto law review, less time to forge new faculty relationships / get strong recommendations for clerkships, losing touch with the faculty at the old schools that are already ready to bat for you, the advantage of being in the top 5-10% at a top school).

2. Besides the extra cost and unnerving lack of certainty, could reapplication possibly hurt my chances at the schools where I was accepted this year?

I've included a poll because polls give instant gratification , but substantive feedback is more useful and could help others with similar questions.

I would say depending on how strong your interest in legal academia is, that you wait and reapply for HYS. The difference in the quantity going in to legal academia from HYS (even compared to a school like CLS) is noticeable. That said - if it is only a fleeting thought- it is worth enrolling now.

even though you're interested in academia, i voted for enroll now bc i think it will be really hard to crack HYS with your GPA. also, i am not sure how withdrawing and re-applying will affect CLS, berk, and NYU.

The 3.5 is what is holding you back from HYS and that isn't going to change in a year. Added research and a more focused PS is unlikely to overcome that. CLS is a great school that will afford you many clerkship and biglaw opportunities, that you may well wish to look into after you're in the law school setting for 2 years... Further, legal academia isn't going to be foreclosed because you attended CLS. You will have to work harder at it, but its a hard track no matter where you graduate.

If I were in your shoes, CLS would be my choice.

You didn't mention in your original post: Did you apply to HYS this year or not (I realize you said 'reapply' but I didn't know if you meant reapply in general or specifically reapply to HYS? If so, were you rejected or waitlisted?

Or the standard TLS answer: Retake!

math101 wrote:Or the standard TLS answer: Retake!

op has a 180.. cant retake it

OP when did you apply? If you applied late- then re-applying may help you get HYS. If not then take CLS. IF you absolutly hate CLS NYU or Berkeley- then apply to other schools next year. You should geta sweet scholarship- so if thats something to think about if you dont want to pay for tuition.

congrats on the 180.

math101 wrote:Or the standard TLS answer: Retake!

I agree with the retake. If you can get to 181, you'd be in at stanford and harvard according to LSP. 183 gets you yale. So you definitely want to retake.

northwood wrote:

math101 wrote:Or the standard TLS answer: Retake!

op has a 180.. cant retake it

math101 wrote:

northwood wrote:

math101 wrote:Or the standard TLS answer: Retake!

op has a 180.. cant retake it

I love this face. OP, H has been known to have a gpa floor above 3.5 unless your a URM unfortunately. I'm not saying it's impossible, b/c nothing is with a 180 (except maybe S). I think it depends on if you got $$$ at CLS, NYU or B and if you're willing to risk it next year. You will almost def get at least one of CCN next cycle if you don't get H or Y

Unless by "more relevant research experience" you mean, find a cure for cancer, I am going to say no. The problem is your GPA. A better personal statement and an additional year of working are not going to change that. I think you have zero shot a YS. Maybe a very small shot at H, but did they reject you this year? I don't think it is worth it to wait a year for a slim chance the H will take you.

+ 1 What the other people here said. In another year, you're likely to just bang your head against the HYS GPA floor again.

Also, as I'm sure you're aware, legal academia is a very, very difficult market, especially without a PhD, but even if you get a job, almost half of them are at scam-schools. Do you really want to spend your career living off money filched from the naive and ignorant, training students who almost inevitably go on to unemployment or - if they are lucky - $50,000 and crushing debt? I couldn't live with myself doing that.

reasonable_man wrote:The 3.5 is what is holding you back from HYS and that isn't going to change in a year. Added research and a more focused PS is unlikely to overcome that. CLS is a great school that will afford you many clerkship and biglaw opportunities, that you may well wish to look into after you're in the law school setting for 2 years... Further, legal academia isn't going to be foreclosed because you attended CLS. You will have to work harder at it, but its a hard track no matter where you graduate.

If I were in your shoes, CLS would be my choice.

No killself?

friend had 180 & 3.7X - held @ H, reject at YS. Plenty other cases with your scores, I'm sure.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go CLS. Can't imagine much changing next cycle.

OP, you're not getting HYS with your 3.5. Enjoy CLS. Also don't count on getting academia, but I think you know that.

OP were you offered a scholarship at any of these schools? if so how much? Is this a game changer for you or is debt not a big stressor/ factor in your decision?

HYS aren't interested in that prole GPA, and taking a year off won't change that. Enroll at CLS or NYU and count yourself lucky.

I'll echo the sentiments of everyone else that unless you can cure cancer you aren't cracking hys with that gpa

It's becoming more and more important to have a PhD in a secondary field for legal academia appointments. If you are going to reapply, go get a good PhD and make sure you research and publish extensively. The more you put between the present and your 3.5, the better your chances at HYS.

I'd take CLS.

r6_philly wrote:It's becoming more and more important to have a PhD in a secondary field for legal academia appointments. If you are going to reapply, go get a good PhD and make sure you research and publish extensively. The more you put between the present and your 3.5, the better your chances at HYS.

I'd take CLS.

Yeah, with a PhD that 3.5 looks less ugly. But I'd just go now.

Wow, lots of answers and opinions. Thanks, all.

1. I did apply to HYS this year, late; waitlist at H. Offered some $ at CLS and NYU, not huge sums.
2. PhDs are helpful for entering academia, but I hear that solid publications are most helpful of all.

AntipodeanPhil wrote:Also, as I'm sure you're aware, legal academia is a very, very difficult market, especially without a PhD, but even if you get a job, almost half of them are at scam-schools. Do you really want to spend your career living off money filched from the naive and ignorant, training students who almost inevitably go on to unemployment or - if they are lucky - $50,000 and crushing debt? I couldn't live with myself doing that.

The idea of planning for a career as a law professor already seems to take some hubris; why not extend the hubris to the idea of getting to teach at a decent school? The fact that the highly competitive and hierarchical nature of the US legal profession seems a bit zero sum bothers me in general. I think if you really want to live with yourself (I do), you have to believe you can make a difference, whatever corner of the law you're in.

P.S. I think a lot of people apply to law school - and become debt slaves to finance it - because they are lemmings that haven't thought about it carefully. There are some deceptive practices by the schools, which should be fought, but I think the onus is mainly on students to be mature about their choices. I'm more worried that the system is unsustainable - a new bubble waiting to burst.

scheherezade wrote:Wow, lots of answers and opinions. Thanks, all.

1. I did apply to HYS this year, late; waitlist at H. Offered some $ at CLS and NYU, not huge sums.
2. PhDs are helpful for entering academia, but I hear that solid publications are most helpful of all.

AntipodeanPhil wrote:Also, as I'm sure you're aware, legal academia is a very, very difficult market, especially without a PhD, but even if you get a job, almost half of them are at scam-schools. Do you really want to spend your career living off money filched from the naive and ignorant, training students who almost inevitably go on to unemployment or - if they are lucky - $50,000 and crushing debt? I couldn't live with myself doing that.

The idea of planning for a career as a law professor already seems to take some hubris; why not extend the hubris to the idea of getting to teach at a decent school? The fact that the highly competitive and hierarchical nature of the US legal profession seems a bit zero sum bothers me in general. I think if you really want to live with yourself (I do), you have to believe you can make a difference, whatever corner of the law you're in.

Being a law professor isn't making a difference, it's basically writing articles that no one except other law professors read. Plus law school classes are barely useful for real life, so you can pretty much resign yourself to not making a difference right away.

Everyone is saying CLS is the obvious choice, but NYU can be good really good for teaching. If you kill 1L you can get in the academic scholars program that has GREAT placement record. You have to have one of the highest GPAs after 1L to get in, but that is true for academia in general and NYU focuses really hard to help those students in the teaching market. I know a few people in the program and it's really good.

Or get the phd now.