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3.37 gpa with engineering degree from Top 5 Eng University

LSATS:
166(cold)
169 (some prep, 3-5 points lower than PTs)
Retaking in June

3 years of in school WE with Fortune 500 Engineering firm
Avg softs beyond that

Looking to work in patent law. What would I realistically need on the LSAT to have a shot at getting into Michigan or Berkeley, with some sort of merit aid if possible?

Berkeley is probably out regardless. They really emphasize that GPA.

LSAT is not a problem in this situation. The work experience should help alleviate concerns with the GPA.

dpk711 wrote:Berkeley is probably out regardless. They really emphasize that GPA.

Not necessarily. 3.3 GPA from a Top 5 engineering program here with < 2 years WE with a well-known global engineering company (little >1 at the time of my application). I almost didn't apply to Berkeley given conventional TLS wisdom. Berkeley is a little hard to predict in general, so obviously Michigan is much more likely. I would concentrate on really bringing up that LSAT though. With a 172+ and tailored Why Mich essays I would say you're as good as safe there.

Edit: I think you have a good chance at getting $ too, with a higher LSAT. From M, that is.

CanadianWolf wrote:LSAT is not a problem in this situation. The work experience should help alleviate concerns with the GPA.

So are you saying I don't need to retake it? I applied to both this year and got dinged at Berkeley and WL at Michigan.

Retake if you feel well prepared, but I doubt that a 169 LSAT score kept you out of Berkeley this year. Obviously, higher LSAT scores are better than lower scores when applying to top 10 law schools; I just do not think that it was a major concern this cycle for you.

P.S. I know of students with much, much lower LSATs who applied this year & received encouragement to apply as transfers.

Well I realize the LSAT was probably ok, but I was thinking of it along the lines of I can improve the LSAT to compensate for the low GPA which I can't change at this point. I've considered taking one of my offers this year and transferring, but it seems like one of the very few things everyone on TLS agrees on is that that is a very bad idea.

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote:Berkeley is probably out regardless. They really emphasize that GPA.

Not necessarily. 3.3 GPA from a Top 5 engineering program here with < 2 years WE with a well-known global engineering company (little >1 at the time of my application). I almost didn't apply to Berkeley given conventional TLS wisdom. Berkeley is a little hard to predict in general, so obviously Michigan is much more likely. I would concentrate on really bringing up that LSAT though. With a 172+ and tailored Why Mich essays I would say you're as good as safe there.

Edit: I think you have a good chance at getting $ too, with a higher LSAT. From M, that is.

Unless OP is URM, I don't see Berkeley happening.

CanadianWolf wrote:Retake if you feel well prepared, but I doubt that a 169 LSAT score kept you out of Berkeley this year. Obviously, higher LSAT scores are better than lower scores when applying to top 10 law schools; I just do not think that it was a major concern this cycle for you.

P.S. I know of students with much, much lower LSATs who applied this year & received encouragement to apply as transfers.

I sort of disagree with this.

1) 169 is the median at Michigan, so with a lower-than-25th GPA the school literally has no incentive to take him unless they're struggling to protect their medians. Getting a 170-173 or above, if OP is capable, would do wonders for his application and actually give him a fighting chance at getting some merit aid.

2) Almost all schools encourage transfer applications in their WL/rejection letters.

Of course if OP can't actually bring his score up, all this is moot.

The 3 years of WE don't really cancel out the GPA - a lot of applicants have quality WE. The best thing to make adcomms look past your low GPA is a high LSAT.

dpk711 wrote:

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote:Berkeley is probably out regardless. They really emphasize that GPA.

Not necessarily. 3.3 GPA from a Top 5 engineering program here with < 2 years WE with a well-known global engineering company (little >1 at the time of my application). I almost didn't apply to Berkeley given conventional TLS wisdom. Berkeley is a little hard to predict in general, so obviously Michigan is much more likely. I would concentrate on really bringing up that LSAT though. With a 172+ and tailored Why Mich essays I would say you're as good as safe there.

Edit: I think you have a good chance at getting $ too, with a higher LSAT. From M, that is.

Unless OP is URM, I don't see Berkeley happening.

Well it happened for me, so I stand by the "not necessarily". It's not a probability, but there's still a possibility, and I would say that it's worth applying with a careful application.

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote:

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote:Berkeley is probably out regardless. They really emphasize that GPA.

Not necessarily. 3.3 GPA from a Top 5 engineering program here with < 2 years WE with a well-known global engineering company (little >1 at the time of my application). I almost didn't apply to Berkeley given conventional TLS wisdom. Berkeley is a little hard to predict in general, so obviously Michigan is much more likely. I would concentrate on really bringing up that LSAT though. With a 172+ and tailored Why Mich essays I would say you're as good as safe there.

Edit: I think you have a good chance at getting $ too, with a higher LSAT. From M, that is.

Unless OP is URM, I don't see Berkeley happening.

Well it happened for me, so I stand by the "not necessarily". It's not a probability, but there's still a possibility, and I would say that it's worth applying with a careful application.

Can you share numbers? Virtually no non-URM with a sub-3.5 gets into Berkeley from my understanding.

dpk711 wrote: Can you share numbers? Virtually no non-URM with a sub-3.5 GPA gets into Berkeley from my understanding.

3.28/177. No GPA addendum - I achieved my glowingly sub-mediocre GPA at a consistent pace so there were no upward trends or extenuating circumstances. I did have my LORs talk about the rampant grade deflation in my major though. From what I remember of the CR1 TLS thread this year, there was also another sub 3.5 non-urm that was accepted with a much lower LSAT than mine but I suspect they had some truly fantastic softs.

I didn't have my hopes up, and neither should OP, but all in all it's definitely possible - just not worth banking on because it's just really hard to tell how the adcomms there operate.

EDIT: saw your 170 ninja edit . Don't know how much the LSAT swayed B to look past my GPA, but I definitely think a retake would help OP's chances here.

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote: Can you share numbers? Virtually no non-URM with a sub-3.5 GPA gets into Berkeley from my understanding.

3.28/177. No GPA addendum - I achieved my glowingly sub-mediocre GPA at a consistent pace so there were no upward trends or extenuating circumstances. I did have my LORs talk about the rampant grade deflation in my major though. From what I remember of the CR1 TLS thread this year, there was also another sub 3.5 non-urm that was accepted with a much lower LSAT than mine but I suspect they had some truly fantastic softs.

I didn't have my hopes up, and neither should OP, but all in all it's definitely possible - just not worth banking on because it's just really hard to tell how the adcomms there operate.

Looking at LSN again, there seems to be a few sub 3.5s sneaking in. So I guess it's a possibility, but I guess you shouldn't expect it though.

dpk711 wrote:

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote: Can you share numbers? Virtually no non-URM with a sub-3.5 GPA gets into Berkeley from my understanding.

3.28/177. No GPA addendum - I achieved my glowingly sub-mediocre GPA at a consistent pace so there were no upward trends or extenuating circumstances. I did have my LORs talk about the rampant grade deflation in my major though. From what I remember of the CR1 TLS thread this year, there was also another sub 3.5 non-urm that was accepted with a much lower LSAT than mine but I suspect they had some truly fantastic softs.

I didn't have my hopes up, and neither should OP, but all in all it's definitely possible - just not worth banking on because it's just really hard to tell how the adcomms there operate.

Looking at LSN again, there seems to be a few sub 3.5s sneaking in. So I guess it's a possibility, but I guess you shouldn't expect it though.

Yes, agreed with the not an expectation etc etc.

czelede wrote:

dpk711 wrote:Berkeley is probably out regardless. They really emphasize that GPA.

Not necessarily. 3.3 GPA from a Top 5 engineering program here with < 2 years WE with a well-known global engineering company (little >1 at the time of my application). I almost didn't apply to Berkeley given conventional TLS wisdom. Berkeley is a little hard to predict in general, so obviously Michigan is much more likely. I would concentrate on really bringing up that LSAT though. With a 172+ and tailored Why Mich essays I would say you're as good as safe there.

Edit: I think you have a good chance at getting $ too, with a higher LSAT. From M, that is.

The bolded doesn't make sense. Even so, your chances are not great at either school in my opinion. I would retake if I were you, but if you're dead set against retaking, then pick one, apply ED and spend a lot of time on the "why Berk/UM" essay. Good luck

Berkeley is likely out regardless of how you do on your next LSAT. Michigan is attainable with your current score; but, a 170+ would obviously help since you would be above one of the medians. Have you considered calling Michigan's admissions office to ask what part(s) of your application could be improved on?

ED NU FTW

(Acronyms ftw)

buckilaw wrote:Berkeley is likely out regardless of how you do on your next LSAT. Michigan is attainable with your current score; but, a 170+ would obviously help since you would be above one of the medians. Have you considered calling Michigan's admissions office to ask what part(s) of your application could be improved on?

Haven't asked that question specifically, but I'd imagine I was just too low to be outright accepted (WL'd). I've seen people a few ticks higher than me in both gpa and LSAT waitlisted this cycle as well. I think if I can bring the score up in June I'll give it another shot next year and hopefully be able to make it.

Does anyone have any input on adding an addendum for either having 3 LSAT scores or having one significantly higher (I can hope I need that anyway )? Good idea? Not needed?

Berk is out w/ a 3.3 prolly, ED to U Mich and you get maybe even w/ the 169

MyManKanye wrote:

buckilaw wrote:Berkeley is likely out regardless of how you do on your next LSAT. Michigan is attainable with your current score; but, a 170+ would obviously help since you would be above one of the medians. Have you considered calling Michigan's admissions office to ask what part(s) of your application could be improved on?

Haven't asked that question specifically, but I'd imagine I was just too low to be outright accepted (WL'd). I've seen people a few ticks higher than me in both gpa and LSAT waitlisted this cycle as well. I think if I can bring the score up in June I'll give it another shot next year and hopefully be able to make it.

Does anyone have any input on adding an addendum for either having 3 LSAT scores or having one significantly higher (I can hope I need that anyway )? Good idea? Not needed?

I don't think an addenddum is needed. Michigan takes the whole file holistic review thing seriously. Make sure your personal statement, LORs, and Resume are all amazing. A good why Mich can also help.

I got in with very boderline numbers this cycle and I fully credit my PS and LORs; god knows they didn't accept me on the strength of my numbers.