Top Law Schools

Hey all,

This is my first post to the forum. I apologize for the wall of text - I like to believe that we are more than our numbers so I wanted to include a little background information for a more holistic assessment. Skip ahead to the bottom for the short version.

I am a recent Harvard grad currently considering next steps, and wanted some advice specifically from TLS forum users. My numbers are ~2.5/175 so I will be applying as a splitter. Regardless of what I choose, I will not be applying until I have had several years of work experience (probably at least 4 or 5). The main reason I am posting is because I want a realistic assessment of my chances with HYS and more generally the T14 schools. Based on numbers alone, it seems like I have almost no chance of admission at the T14 (barring Northwestern which supposedly can tolerate splitters), and definitely no chance at HYS. My top choices for schools are anything in the T-14 especially H and G, and then GWU, BU, BC, Fordham, and American.

Also, I would love to have a second shot at H some day (to make up for my poor undergrad performance) so I am also very interested in my chances with that school in particular. I've read elsewhere in the forum that the top schools do in fact give a slight bump to top tier ugrads (they called it a "strong soft"), but how much of a bump would be given to a 2.5 GPA?

The main issue I am still debating in considering my options for next steps is whether to join the military. I've thought through or researched most of the other considerations on my own, so I'm not asking whether I should serve, but exactly how military service would affect my application. Disclaimer: Primary reason for military service would not be to improve my application) Regardless of what I do, I see the time between now and when I apply as a time to gain more maturity and perspective as well as to improve both my application and my readiness to be a top notch law student. Considering my numbers and the fact that I have an Ivy League degree, how much will military service improve my chances at these schools? For example, I read in a post elsewhere that GW is very military-friendly.

basically my post boils down to these three questions:

1.) If there is a "bump" for top tier ugrads and specifically at H for having gone there, how much would a bump for H degree be mitigated by the 2.5?
2.) As a 2.5/175 Harvard grad, what are my chances realistically at the T-14, and specifically at H? BU, BC, Fordham, GW, American?
3.) How exactly will military service affect my application, given my numbers and ivy league background?

Thanks for your help!

With a 175 I would assume you would get into most schools outside the t-14 and maybe eevn some t-14. I think that could be influenced by softs and a personal statement or adendum explaingin your low GPA.

This site could be informative:

http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/

1.undergrad doesn't matter much at all,
2.lower T-14s have a shot, H is out, definitely in at American, but u may get waitlisted cause of YP
3.military will help

tough, i'd say maybe in with an ED somewhere in the lower part of the t14. That is the best you can hope for.

Are you an under-represented minority?

If so, you may be able to make some headway.

Otherwise, you are likely to get shut out of the T14 with the possible exceptions of Northwestern ED or maybe UVA ED. Military service would probably be good work experience for Northwestern and might also give you a bump at UVA (JAG school)

The only T14 that would take you is NU if you had at least 1 year of postgrad work experience and ED'ed there. None of the other T14's will take a 2.5, even with ED. You might have a small shot if you were a URM or were to ED to GULC Part Time.

Anybody saying you have a realistic chance at the lower T14 or ED to UVa is being way too optimistic.

ED to UVA.

u should consider UCI, UCI might reach those ranks soon once it is accredited

It seems highly unlikely (based on LSN) that you will crack H with a 2.5, no matter what your background. (This may be reconsidered after you receive your Medal of Honor.)

In looking a lot at cycles on LSN over the past few years and such, it seems that military service is certainly a significant bump; however, it doesn't seem to be any bigger of a bump than Teach for America. If you were going to pick any single short-term thing to do solely to improve your chances at t14 schools, Teach for America is probably your best bet.

Another thing to consider is that a 5 year commitment to the military will force you to do a retake due to the expiration of your LSAT score, and that retake could possibly be under less than ideal conditions depending on how your deployment schedule jives with your future app cycle.

That said, I can't see how some distance between you and that GPA could possibly hurt. I say that you should join the military if you want, knowing that your dream law school is pretty much off the table.

American would probably YP you and if anything, they don't give out much scholarship.
GW, BU, BC, and Fordham are all iffy. They haven't dipped as low as your GPA is recent years, but extreme splitter from Harvard UG with 4 or 5 years WE would be unique.

As for the T-14, I'd say Northwestern is your best bet and even then it's a long shot with that GPA. I think GULC is out (lowest GPA they accepted recently was a 2.73 but it was a URM). Lowest for Michigan was a 2.9 URM. Penn was 3.0 URM. You get the picture.

WUSTL might bite and throw money at you. They seem to love splitters.

ETA: also, please please do not go into military service just to improve you law school applications.

Flips88 wrote:American would probably YP you and if anything, they don't give out much scholarship.
GW, BU, BC, and Fordham are all iffy. They haven't dipped as low as your GPA is recent years, but extreme splitter from Harvard UG with 4 or 5 years WE would be unique.

As for the T-14, I'd say Northwestern is your best bet and even then it's a long shot with that GPA. I think GULC is out (lowest GPA they accepted recently was a 2.73 but it was a URM). Lowest for Michigan was a 2.9 URM. Penn was 3.0 URM. You get the picture.

WUSTL might bite and throw money at you. They seem to love splitters.

ETA: also, please please do not go into military service just to improve you law school applications.

bloomington will shower you with money, also try LEOP with hastings, they will give you money too

If you are not some sort of legacy (and even this is hard to gauge) or have something borderline implausible on your resume (three-time MofH recipient), you're not getting H. Even if you retake and get a 180, and even if you're a URM.


But maybe if you're this guy...

To put it bluntly, nothing is going to make up for a 2.5. You are only going to get schools that are okay with taking super low GPAs (NU, WUSTL, sometimes GW, IUB, pretty much any T2/T3/T4 school).

make sure you write a good addendum on your GPA though, that will make u competitive for most T1 schools, perhaps outside of T14

@ Bdubs: Non-URM, unfortunately.

@ Flips: Definitely not going to join just because it will improve my app, as I understand there are much better and more direct ways of doing so, for example, through TFA as Boushi suggested.

Consensus so far seems like:
Best case scenario: ED to the likes of VA or PT GULC (very very big stretches), NU, WUSTL and possibly UCI.
Worst case scenario: Rejection at all T-50, including American (YP).

Also, about the LSAT: What if I retook and got a 180 or closer to it? Does it change the outlook at all?
Does it seem like I need to readjust my sights a little? Should I set my "target" schools squarely within the T-2 range?

bawsetinboy wrote:@ Bdubs: Non-URM, unfortunately.

@ Flips: Definitely not going to join just because it will improve my app, as I understand there are much better and more direct ways of doing so, for example, through TFA as Boushi suggested.

Consensus so far seems like:
Best case scenario: ED to the likes of VA or PT GULC (very very big stretches), NU, WUSTL and possibly UCI.
Worst case scenario: Rejection at all T-50, including American (YP).

Also, about the LSAT: What if I retook and got a 180 or closer to it? Does it change the outlook at all?
Does it seem like I need to readjust my sights a little? Should I set my "target" schools squarely within the T-2 range?

you won't get rejected by all t-50, you score is way too good for that, with your score this year, you would've gotten 120k scholly from bloomington already

You might, read might, have a shot at GULC Part Time.

bawsetinboy wrote:@ Bdubs: Non-URM, unfortunately.

@ Flips: Definitely not going to join just because it will improve my app, as I understand there are much better and more direct ways of doing so, for example, through TFA as Boushi suggested.

Consensus so far seems like:
Best case scenario: ED to the likes of VA or PT GULC (very very big stretches), NU, WUSTL and possibly UCI.
Worst case scenario: Rejection at all T-50, including American (YP).

Also, about the LSAT: What if I retook and got a 180 or closer to it? Does it change the outlook at all?
Does it seem like I need to readjust my sights a little? Should I set my "target" schools squarely within the T-2 range?

OP, to be honest a difference between a 175 and 180 is quite minimal. I think the best shot you have at for an elite school is NU ED with your military experience. I can't see you having more than a negligible chance at any other T14 school.

bawsetinboy wrote:@ Bdubs: Non-URM, unfortunately.

@ Flips: Definitely not going to join just because it will improve my app, as I understand there are much better and more direct ways of doing so, for example, through TFA as Boushi suggested.

Consensus so far seems like:
Best case scenario: ED to the likes of VA or PT GULC (very very big stretches), NU, WUSTL and possibly UCI.
Worst case scenario: Rejection at all T-50, including American (YP).

Also, about the LSAT: What if I retook and got a 180 or closer to it? Does it change the outlook at all?
Does it seem like I need to readjust my sights a little? Should I set my "target" schools squarely within the T-2 range?

You probably shouldn't waste time with UVa or GULC-PT (especially the former since it is not going to happen). Ideally just spend 1-2 years working full time and ED to NU and you will probably be set. I would take WUSTL/GW/Illinois/IUB as backups (mainly WUSTL/IUB since they are generous with $ for splitters), and then the T2's in the area you want to work (where you shouldn't settle for less than 1/2 tuition or more scholarship money.

Retaking isn't going to help you.

Why did you get a 2.5? Are you in an engineering program that curved to a 3.0, did you get a straight semester of F's on top of what otherwise would have been a 3.5-3.7, or did you just f*ck around all four years?

I think with your unique combination of very high LSAT, extremely low grades, and prestigious UG you will get some attention. If you had a reasonable excuse, I could see schools making you the exception but only if you have WE (I think you are on the right track with military service though).

bk187 wrote:To put it bluntly, nothing is going to make up for a 2.5. You are only going to get schools that are okay with taking super low GPAs (NU, WUSTL, sometimes GW, IUB, pretty much any T2/T3/T4 school).

Hmm, I see...thanks for the real talk so far everyone, I appreciate it.

Haha..I'll try not to think about H too much, at least not until I win multiple Medals and earn a tv contract with MTV. and even then maybe not unless i become the youngest president in the history of the US, and decide i want to go back and earn a law degree.

bawsetinboy wrote:

bk187 wrote:To put it bluntly, nothing is going to make up for a 2.5. You are only going to get schools that are okay with taking super low GPAs (NU, WUSTL, sometimes GW, IUB, pretty much any T2/T3/T4 school).

Hmm, I see...thanks for the real talk so far everyone, I appreciate it.

Coming from someone with a similar GPA/LSAT combo and who is a URM, I can tell you that having that sort of GPA is brutal.

I think the work for 2 years and ED to NU is the best bet for netting a T14 (but you would be paying sticker). If you are applying this year and are fine with Indiana or the midwest generally then you could get decent money from IUB/WUSTL while throwing a hail mary ED to GULC Part Time. You can probably net decent scholarships from T2's as backups in case the other apps don't work out.

bdubs wrote:Why did you get a 2.5? Are you in an engineering program that curved to a 3.0, did you get a straight semester of F's on top of what otherwise would have been a 3.5-3.7, or did you just f*ck around all four years?

I think with your unique combination of very high LSAT, extremely low grades, and prestigious UG you will get some attention. If you had a reasonable excuse, I could see schools making you the exception but only if you have WE (I think you are on the right track with military service though).

A combination of b.) and c.). My first year was abysmal, went on a huge upward trend for the next two years, then dropped precipitously in the last year. It was a combination of many things, but included poor study habits, f*cking around and general lack of regard for academics (first year), and pretty severe depression (last year).

definitely planning on submitting a solid addendum.

The Midwest is your best bet. ED NU, RD: WUSTL, IUB, Illinois and Minnesota. You should also throw up hail mary GULC, Cornell and UVA apps

JamMasterJ wrote:The Midwest is your best bet. ED NU, RD: WUSTL, IUB, Illinois and Minnesota. You should also throw up hail mary GULC, Cornell and UVA apps

I was under the impression that hail mary GULC/UVA apps needed to be ED's to make them the most competitive?

I would really, really prefer to attend school in the DC/NY area. So if I had only one shot with an ED, I would definitely prefer GULC to NU, although not if my chance at admission to NU were significantly higher than at GULC. That does seem to be the case according to consensus, as almost everyone who has posted so far has recommended NU ED as the best shot at a T-14.