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I'd rethink how easy it is to go into criminal prosecution and would assume that you won't qualify for those programs immediately. $160k sticker at either of those schools is a really dangerous wager to make considering how few positions there are in that area in Illinois and the stiff competition there is in Chicago.

That said, I'd guess you'd be in at DePaul and waitlisted/rejected at Loyola. I'm 158/3.6 and got in both places with $$ at Loyola, but Loyola seemed to have me on an unofficial waitlist because I didn't hear back from them for over three months. Loyola accepts fewer people than DePaul too. I assume you're applying next cycle? Would you be able to retake your LSAT in June? Both of those would up your chances obviously.

yeah a 160 or so in June or October is your best bet

mrtoren wrote:I'm below last year's medians for both, which is never a good thing when its comes to admissions confidence. However, I'm not concerned about scholarships because I'm set on criminal prosecution and there are plenty of programs to help me pay off my debt. What do you guys think? Any chance?

I have exact numbers. 158, 3.2 and just got accepted to DePaul off the waitlist and will be attending next fall

dgymrat44 wrote:

mrtoren wrote:I'm below last year's medians for both, which is never a good thing when its comes to admissions confidence. However, I'm not concerned about scholarships because I'm set on criminal prosecution and there are plenty of programs to help me pay off my debt. What do you guys think? Any chance?

I have exact numbers. 158, 3.2 and just got accepted to DePaul off the waitlist and will be attending next fall

Do you have any oddities that would make you more appealing? URM? Non-trad? Also, when specifically did you find out? Thanks in advance!

i had a 158/3.4 and got rejected from depaul, but in at loyola off the wait list last year (part time offer though).

Get a 168 and go to WUSTL

dpk711 wrote:Get a 168 and go to WUSTL

They may be pushing for a 169 median next cycle...last year the "magic number" was 167, this year it's 168, going by the LSN charts. Total LSAT whores.

mettasutta wrote:

dpk711 wrote:Get a 168 and go to WUSTL

They may be pushing for a 169 median next cycle...last year the "magic number" was 167, this year it's 168, going by the LSN charts. Total LSAT whores.

it seems anyone with a 168, regardless of GPA got in this year

mettasutta wrote:

dpk711 wrote:Get a 168 and go to WUSTL

They may be pushing for a 169 median next cycle...last year the "magic number" was 167, this year it's 168, going by the LSN charts. Total LSAT whores.

Damn, I can't believe that TTT manages to have such a high median LSAT. That's t14 LSAT median range. In any event, WUSTL wouldn't be the best of decisions for Chicago ITE. UIUC would be better, although still not great odds of getting something decent in Chicago. Both of those schools are far enough from Chicago that it would make doing internships and networking generally in Chicago difficult (and doing internships at the local prosecutor's office would be hugely helpful for getting a job in the area in criminal prosecution). UIUC, however, does have a good alumni base in Chicago, so that would be helpful.

Also what emmac said (i.e. don't plan on counting on 10 year IBR to repay your debt, because you might not be able to find a job in criminal prosecution in the Chicago area -- there's a ton of competition there for those positions, and Depaul/Loyola aren't exactly the types of schools that are going to make you very competitive for the small number of positions there are).

XxSpyKEx wrote:Also what emmac said (i.e. don't plan on counting on 10 year IBR to repay your debt, because you might not be able to find a job in criminal prosecution in the Chicago area -- there's a ton of competition there for those positions, and Depaul/Loyola aren't exactly the types of schools that are going to make you very competitive for the small number of positions there are).

I've interned and talked with plenty of Assistant State's Attorneys around here..competition is not as fierce as you seem to think. The majority of them are Tier 4 graduates from SIU and NIU. It appears that most law graduates are more interested in chasing after the elusive six figure salaries than they are about obtaining comfortable job/financial security. Suits me well.

mrtoren wrote:I've interned and talked with plenty of Assistant State's Attorneys around here..competition is not as fierce as you seem to think. The majority of them are Tier 4 graduates from SIU and NIU. It appears that most law graduates are more interested in chasing after the elusive six figure salaries than they are about obtaining comfortable job/financial security. Suits me well.

Yeah, but the majority of them were also hired pre-ITE. I've heard stories from bottom of the class Cooley grads getting PI jobs pre-ITE. But the hiring freezes really have had a pretty big impact on PI hiring, where even people at t14s who want PI are having trouble getting it. I know plenty of PI orientated people here at my t14 who have had a difficult time finding PI jobs. Also, biglaw hiring had a real impact on PI interest because so many people struck out at OCI and couldn't get biglaw. PI is the outlet all those students pursue because of LRAP & IBR. If you can somehow get insight as to current application and hiring trends at the Assistant State's Attorney's office, that would be useful. I'd be surprised if T4 grads are just trotting on into these jobs. I mean there are people at my school that just graduated and still have no job whatsoever lined up. These people would kill for a $50k /year job in a major market, like Chicago, but can't get it. If these types of people can't get those jobs, I don't see why any reason why a Depaul or Loyola grad would.

XxSpyKEx wrote:Yeah, but the majority of them were also hired pre-ITE. I've heard stories from bottom of the class Cooley grads getting PI jobs pre-ITE. But the hiring freezes really have had a pretty big impact on PI hiring, where even people at t14s who want PI are having trouble getting it. I know plenty of PI orientated people here at my t14 who have had a difficult time finding PI jobs. Also, biglaw hiring had a real impact on PI interest because so many people struck out at OCI and couldn't get biglaw. PI is the outlet all those students pursue because of LRAP & IBR. If you can somehow get insight as to current application and hiring trends at the Assistant State's Attorney's office, that would be useful. I'd be surprised if T4 grads are just trotting on into these jobs. I mean there are people at my school that just graduated and still have no job whatsoever lined up. These people would kill for a $50k /year job in a major market, like Chicago, but can't get it. If these types of people can't get those jobs, I don't see why any reason why a Depaul or Loyola grad would.

Cook County may be a little more competitive than the outlying counties, but I'm not locked into any one county. I know a Cooley graduate who just got hired at a central Illinois State's Attorney's Office a couple weeks ago. Work can be found; its not as bad as the pessimistic attitude of these forums suggest. BigLaw is downsizing, along with the salaries, and that is creating an apocalyptic atmosphere here.

It's generally a bad idea to borrow a ton of money to attend a bad law school with the assumption you are going to be fine because you want to go into X PI job. Even if we were to assume you could get X PI job after graduation, what you think you want to do now, and what you want to do after a year of law school might change. I know it did for me, and it did for others as well. There are even cops that go into law school after a number of years in law enforcement who decide they don't want to go into criminal prosecution (even though that was their goal coming into law school). You really are closing a lot of doors by attending a TTT, like depaul or loyola, and borrowing a boatload of money. Just retake and go somewhere better. You are much better off borrowing $200k somewhere like Northwestern thinking you want to go into criminal prosecution and not worrying about the debt than going to a TTT with those same circumstances (because you'll have a lot more options leaving northwestern than you will leaving a TTT).

XxSpyKEx wrote:Damn, I can't believe that TTT manages to have such a high median LSAT.

I initially only wanted to interject here that you're a moron for thinking WUSTL is a TTT.

But also go Chicago! I think the OP needs to understand how uphill their battle will be upon graduation. They should plan on not having a job. That being said, I agree the attitude on this board is overwhelmingly pessimistic. The vast majority of people on here are looking to have jobs handed to them, because they simply went to the right school. I have a friend who went to Loyola, did not get a job, had a rough couple years where he did endless pro bono work and simply networked. He has now hung up his own shingle and books 110k in income a year. Basically, you can make it happen, but don't expect it to be easy. And debt is a bitch.

ahduth wrote:

XxSpyKEx wrote:Damn, I can't believe that TTT manages to have such a high median LSAT.

I initially only wanted to interject here that you're a moron for thinking WUSTL is a TTT.

But also go Chicago! I think the OP needs to understand how uphill their battle will be upon graduation. They should plan on not having a job. That being said, I agree the attitude on this board is overwhelmingly pessimistic. The vast majority of people on here are looking to have jobs handed to them, because they simply went to the right school. I have a friend who went to Loyola, did not get a job, had a rough couple years where he did endless pro bono work and simply networked. He has now hung up his own shingle and books 110k in income a year. Basically, you can make it happen, but don't expect it to be easy. And debt is a bitch.

In all fairness though, WUSTL is severely overrated as a law school.

dpk711 wrote:

ahduth wrote:

XxSpyKEx wrote:Damn, I can't believe that TTT manages to have such a high median LSAT.

I initially only wanted to interject here that you're a moron for thinking WUSTL is a TTT.

But also go Chicago! I think the OP needs to understand how uphill their battle will be upon graduation. They should plan on not having a job. That being said, I agree the attitude on this board is overwhelmingly pessimistic. The vast majority of people on here are looking to have jobs handed to them, because they simply went to the right school. I have a friend who went to Loyola, did not get a job, had a rough couple years where he did endless pro bono work and simply networked. He has now hung up his own shingle and books 110k in income a year. Basically, you can make it happen, but don't expect it to be easy. And debt is a bitch.

In all fairness though, WUSTL is severely overrated as a law school.

The comment about WUSTL being a TTT was dickish indeed, but its placement stats based on %age NLJ250 and clerkships definitely lags behind its USNWR ranking. It's definitely not in the same level of schools as Texas/Vandy/UCLA/USC and even some lower-ranked institutions like BC/BU (obvious bias here, lol)

mrtoren wrote:

XxSpyKEx wrote:Yeah, but the majority of them were also hired pre-ITE. I've heard stories from bottom of the class Cooley grads getting PI jobs pre-ITE. But the hiring freezes really have had a pretty big impact on PI hiring, where even people at t14s who want PI are having trouble getting it. I know plenty of PI orientated people here at my t14 who have had a difficult time finding PI jobs. Also, biglaw hiring had a real impact on PI interest because so many people struck out at OCI and couldn't get biglaw. PI is the outlet all those students pursue because of LRAP & IBR. If you can somehow get insight as to current application and hiring trends at the Assistant State's Attorney's office, that would be useful. I'd be surprised if T4 grads are just trotting on into these jobs. I mean there are people at my school that just graduated and still have no job whatsoever lined up. These people would kill for a $50k /year job in a major market, like Chicago, but can't get it. If these types of people can't get those jobs, I don't see why any reason why a Depaul or Loyola grad would.

Cook County may be a little more competitive than the outlying counties, but I'm not locked into any one county. I know a Cooley graduate who just got hired at a central Illinois State's Attorney's Office a couple weeks ago. Work can be found; its not as bad as the pessimistic attitude of these forums suggest. BigLaw is downsizing, along with the salaries, and that is creating an apocalyptic atmosphere here.

Though I'm partially inclined to agree with you, I want to stress that working for any government agency in Illinois is going to be very difficult in the next few years. Hiring freezes are bound to continue as Illinois' deficit expands. I'm not saying you won't get one of those jobs, but I would not bank on it in the first few years at the expense of taking out obscene loans that you will have to pay back while you're waiting for that job offer. Think about what job you will get if you don't get a public interest gig, and weigh whether or not you'll be able to pay $1500/month on your law school loans.

mrtoren wrote:It appears that most law graduates are more interested in chasing after the elusive six figure salaries than they are about obtaining comfortable job/financial security. Suits me well.

Not much comfort or financial security to be had when you're making less than $50k w/ $200k in loans to pay off.

emmac wrote:

mrtoren wrote:

XxSpyKEx wrote:Yeah, but the majority of them were also hired pre-ITE. I've heard stories from bottom of the class Cooley grads getting PI jobs pre-ITE. But the hiring freezes really have had a pretty big impact on PI hiring, where even people at t14s who want PI are having trouble getting it. I know plenty of PI orientated people here at my t14 who have had a difficult time finding PI jobs. Also, biglaw hiring had a real impact on PI interest because so many people struck out at OCI and couldn't get biglaw. PI is the outlet all those students pursue because of LRAP & IBR. If you can somehow get insight as to current application and hiring trends at the Assistant State's Attorney's office, that would be useful. I'd be surprised if T4 grads are just trotting on into these jobs. I mean there are people at my school that just graduated and still have no job whatsoever lined up. These people would kill for a $50k /year job in a major market, like Chicago, but can't get it. If these types of people can't get those jobs, I don't see why any reason why a Depaul or Loyola grad would.

Cook County may be a little more competitive than the outlying counties, but I'm not locked into any one county. I know a Cooley graduate who just got hired at a central Illinois State's Attorney's Office a couple weeks ago. Work can be found; its not as bad as the pessimistic attitude of these forums suggest. BigLaw is downsizing, along with the salaries, and that is creating an apocalyptic atmosphere here.

Though I'm partially inclined to agree with you, I want to stress that working for any government agency in Illinois is going to be very difficult in the next few years. Hiring freezes are bound to continue as Illinois' deficit expands. I'm not saying you won't get one of those jobs, but I would not bank on it in the first few years at the expense of taking out obscene loans that you will have to pay back while you're waiting for that job offer. Think about what job you will get if you don't get a public interest gig, and weigh whether or not you'll be able to pay $2500+ /month on your law school loans.

FTFY (assuming you are talking about a normal 10 year student loan repayment, and not the extended 25-30 year repayment).

XxSpyKEx wrote:

emmac wrote:

mrtoren wrote:

XxSpyKEx wrote:Yeah, but the majority of them were also hired pre-ITE. I've heard stories from bottom of the class Cooley grads getting PI jobs pre-ITE. But the hiring freezes really have had a pretty big impact on PI hiring, where even people at t14s who want PI are having trouble getting it. I know plenty of PI orientated people here at my t14 who have had a difficult time finding PI jobs. Also, biglaw hiring had a real impact on PI interest because so many people struck out at OCI and couldn't get biglaw. PI is the outlet all those students pursue because of LRAP & IBR. If you can somehow get insight as to current application and hiring trends at the Assistant State's Attorney's office, that would be useful. I'd be surprised if T4 grads are just trotting on into these jobs. I mean there are people at my school that just graduated and still have no job whatsoever lined up. These people would kill for a $50k /year job in a major market, like Chicago, but can't get it. If these types of people can't get those jobs, I don't see why any reason why a Depaul or Loyola grad would.

Cook County may be a little more competitive than the outlying counties, but I'm not locked into any one county. I know a Cooley graduate who just got hired at a central Illinois State's Attorney's Office a couple weeks ago. Work can be found; its not as bad as the pessimistic attitude of these forums suggest. BigLaw is downsizing, along with the salaries, and that is creating an apocalyptic atmosphere here.

Though I'm partially inclined to agree with you, I want to stress that working for any government agency in Illinois is going to be very difficult in the next few years. Hiring freezes are bound to continue as Illinois' deficit expands. I'm not saying you won't get one of those jobs, but I would not bank on it in the first few years at the expense of taking out obscene loans that you will have to pay back while you're waiting for that job offer. Think about what job you will get if you don't get a public interest gig, and weigh whether or not you'll be able to pay $2500+ /month on your law school loans.

FTFY (assuming you are talking about a normal 10 year student loan repayment, and not the extended 25-30 year repayment).

I was assuming that OP would pay less (ie 25 year repayment plan) during the years (s)he's trying to land a job that qualifies for public interest loan forgiveness/LRAP programs. There is income based repayment, but that, of course, requires a steady job rather than the temp work that most recent grads are getting these days. If you're working for $25/hour for a specified period of time, then back to unemployment, then working again, $1500/month is pretty standard on a 25 year plan assuming private loans aren't taken out.

Be positive.. the tier/ranking all-or-nothing business is a gigantic load of dinosaur CRAP. While the theory that law schools care only for your numbers may - however unfortunately - hold true as a generality, there are ALWAYS exceptions.

I myself was accepted this cycle at Loyola Chicago, Chicago Kent, and Depaul (among several others) with merit scholarships ranging from 12-20,000K, got waitlisted (then rejected) at both Cornell and Northwestern. I'll be attending Chicago Kent this fall and applying as a transfer to both Cornell and Northwestern since it seemed so hopeful... I'd still be happy to graduate from Kent given the quality of their IP program.

MY numbers?

2.5GPA/160LSAT, white female, bioengineering, Cornell undergrad, great LORs and personal statement, international work experience, no secret advantages

If you make up for the areas in which your application is lacking by standing out in other ways, your numbers don't have to be the proverbial curse everyone talks about... Standing out is not a guarantee you'll get in, but no guarantee that you won't either.

I think most people on this site are somewhat bitter and obnoxious - even if they don't necessarily mean to be. Perhaps some are employing the use of intimidation tactics - don't know, don't care anymore since receiving my acceptances. Having done a lot of reading and research myself, I felt so discouraged when I read half of the posts on top-law-schools... Thought I'd bring in a little rare optimism to spice things up.