Top Law Schools

T14 order for someone definitely remaining in NYC for rest of career?

BrookNon wrote:T14 order for someone definitely remaining in NYC for rest of career?

Fordham
Y
H
S
...

Generally the same as for anything else, but within bands of schools that tie often in the rankings, move the geographically close ones to the top. I won't be drawn into fight about exactly what order, but something similar to this:

YH
SCN
Chi.
PNMVBC
DG

The real question is how low in the class can you be and still be competitive for NYC jobs. Based on that, I think it's probably closer to:
YS
H
CCN
...the rest of the T14 as expected.

Y
HS
C
N
Chi
MVPDCN
BG

Renzo wrote:Generally the same as for anything else, but within bands of schools that tie often in the rankings, move the geographically close ones to the top. I won't be drawn into fight about exactly what order, but something similar to this:

YH
SCN
Chi.
PNMVBC
DG

+1

Based on actual placement into the region, I believe it's something like this:

Columbia/NYU/Penn/Cornell
Harvard/Yale
Stanford/Boalt/Chicago/Michigan/Virginia/Duke/Northwestern/GULC

Based on actual placement power into the region, it's probably something like this:

HYS
CN
Chi
Everyone else

Generally the same as for anything else, but within bands of schools that tie often in the rankings, move the geographically close ones to the top. I won't be drawn into fight about exactly what order, but something similar to this:

YH
SCN
Chi.
PNMVBC
DG

Wait, Harvard and Yale tied? NYU=Columbia? Penn/UVA lumped in with Berkeley and NU (a Chicago school)? NU ahead of Duke?

Yale
Harvard
Stanford / Columbia
NYU / Chicago
Penn
UVA
Cornell / Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Georgetown
Northwestern

NLJ 250 statistics combined with school prestige combined with location and some other facts pulled out of my ass.

NYC big law really likes the Ivy Leagues, but there are also a lot of west coast schools that place fairly well amongst the T14 competition, such as UCLA (large NYC presence at OCI in past) and obviously Stanford. Fordham also has a strong alumni connection, and I know a lot of people out here on Long Island that work big law and graduated Fordham. Not sure how OCI has been recently in the economy, but Fordham fairs pretty well amongst the T14 competition, especially if you graduate top 15%.

niederbomb wrote:

Generally the same as for anything else, but within bands of schools that tie often in the rankings, move the geographically close ones to the top. I won't be drawn into fight about exactly what order, but something similar to this:

YH
SCN
Chi.
PNMVBC
DG

Wait, Harvard and Yale tied? NYU=Columbia? Penn/UVA lumped in with Berkeley and NU (a Chicago school)? NU ahead of Duke?

Yale
Harvard
Stanford / Columbia
NYU / Chicago
Penn
UVA
Cornell / Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Georgetown
Northwestern

NLJ 250 statistics combined with school prestige combined with location and some other facts pulled out of my ass.

No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

dooood wrote: No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

Proof?

niederbomb wrote:

Generally the same as for anything else, but within bands of schools that tie often in the rankings, move the geographically close ones to the top. I won't be drawn into fight about exactly what order, but something similar to this:

YH
SCN
Chi.
PNMVBC
DG

Wait, Harvard and Yale tied? NYU=Columbia? Penn/UVA lumped in with Berkeley and NU (a Chicago school)? NU ahead of Duke?

Yale
Harvard
Stanford / Columbia
NYU / Chicago
Penn
UVA
Cornell / Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Georgetown
Northwestern

NLJ 250 statistics combined with school prestige combined with location and some other facts pulled out of my ass.

I give you props for good effort, but you'll have to try harder if you want me to bite.

Renzo wrote: I won't be drawn into fight about exactly what order

YS
H
CCN
Rest of T13
Gtown

Penn and Cornell might have a slight edge over the rest of the T13 but who knows. Each firm weighs this different. How well you plan your bidlist is probably more important.

I'm really shocked that so few people put Penn ahead of the schools outside of HYS and CCN. I would give them more credit than that. From what I've seen their reputation in NYC is almost as good as NYU's, and it certainly seems better than Michigan, UVA, and Berkeley's in NYC. I'm not interested in NYC biglaw, but if I was I would definitely rather be at Penn than here.

Honestly, this whole debate is pretty stupid, particularly when we try to micromanage the placement distinctions between individual schools or groups of schools. We would need far, far more information (including complete employment data, and more evidence regarding self-selection) to even have a worthwhile discussion of these differences.

The best we can do: if you go to HYS, you're probably gonna be all right; if you attend CN (and maybe Chi), you might have some advantage over the rest of the T14; if you attend another T14, the placement difference in NYC between your school and another non-T6 T14 is so small, so prone to fluctuation, and so hard to correctly determine that it's not even worth it.

The one big difference: proximity to NYC may give you a leg-up in terms of networking and NYC firms at OCI, but it's difficult to determine the effect of this advantage when it comes to hiring.

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote: No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

Proof?

They're just about always viewed as peer schools, so the rebuttable presumption (sorry, lame LS analogy) would be that they are and it'd be up to you to "prove" that they're not. Aside from that, US News' firm reputation score (which is largely NY-centric) has these schools ranked similarly (M=4.7; P=4.4; V=4.6). Being that we're talking about placement power and not actual placement, which is largely affected by self-selection, I can't see any better metric to reveal placement power than what firms think about the students they're hiring.

dooood wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote: No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

Proof?

They're just about always viewed as peer schools, so the rebuttable presumption (sorry, lame LS analogy) would be that they are and it'd be up to you to "prove" that they're not. Aside from that, US News' firm reputation score (which is largely NY-centric) has these schools ranked similarly (M=4.7; P=4.4; V=4.6). Being that we're talking about placement power and not actual placement, which is largely affected by self-selection, I can't see any better metric to reveal placement power than what firms think about the students they're hiring.

I asked for proof, not a hypothesis.

It's silly to deny that Penn has an edge in NYC, just as Michigan has an edge in Chicago and Virginia has an edge in DC. Yes, this partially has to do with self-selection, but years and years of self-selection lead to differences in OCI recruiters and alumni networks. I will admit that this difference is not huge, but it is big enough to warrant choosing one school over the other when costs are equal.

dooood wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote: No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

Proof?

They're just about always viewed as peer schools, so the rebuttable presumption (sorry, lame LS analogy) would be that they are and it'd be up to you to "prove" that they're not. Aside from that, US News' firm reputation score (which is largely NY-centric) has these schools ranked similarly (M=4.7; P=4.4; V=4.6). Being that we're talking about placement power and not actual placement, which is largely affected by self-selection, I can't see any better metric to reveal placement power than what firms think about the students they're hiring.

One way would be to find firm GPA cut offs and compare (after accounting for different curves).

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote: No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

Proof?

They're just about always viewed as peer schools, so the rebuttable presumption (sorry, lame LS analogy) would be that they are and it'd be up to you to "prove" that they're not. Aside from that, US News' firm reputation score (which is largely NY-centric) has these schools ranked similarly (M=4.7; P=4.4; V=4.6). Being that we're talking about placement power and not actual placement, which is largely affected by self-selection, I can't see any better metric to reveal placement power than what firms think about the students they're hiring.

I asked for proof, not a hypothesis.

It's silly to deny that Penn has an edge in NYC, just as Michigan has an edge in Chicago and Virginia has an edge in DC. Yes, this partially has to do with self-selection, but years and years of self-selection lead to differences in OCI recruiters and alumni networks. I will admit that this difference is not huge, but it is big enough to warrant choosing one school over the other when costs are equal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

dooood wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

Take DF's suggestion and prove me wrong, then. I don't mind learning new things, but forgive me for trusting the wisdom of law students who have been through and are going through the process over you.

Desert Fox wrote:

dooood wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote: No difference btw MVP in ability to place in New York

Proof?

They're just about always viewed as peer schools, so the rebuttable presumption (sorry, lame LS analogy) would be that they are and it'd be up to you to "prove" that they're not. Aside from that, US News' firm reputation score (which is largely NY-centric) has these schools ranked similarly (M=4.7; P=4.4; V=4.6). Being that we're talking about placement power and not actual placement, which is largely affected by self-selection, I can't see any better metric to reveal placement power than what firms think about the students they're hiring.

One way would be to find firm GPA cut offs and compare (after accounting for different curves).

Yes, that's true. Based on the info we have, though, I don't see any difference between MVPDCN in ability to place into NY. G is probably slightly below, and B doesn't seem to hold as much water in NY as it does on the West Coast.

dooood wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

dooood wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:
Proof?

They're just about always viewed as peer schools, so the rebuttable presumption (sorry, lame LS analogy) would be that they are and it'd be up to you to "prove" that they're not. Aside from that, US News' firm reputation score (which is largely NY-centric) has these schools ranked similarly (M=4.7; P=4.4; V=4.6). Being that we're talking about placement power and not actual placement, which is largely affected by self-selection, I can't see any better metric to reveal placement power than what firms think about the students they're hiring.

One way would be to find firm GPA cut offs and compare (after accounting for different curves).

Yes, that's true. Based on the info we have, though, I don't see any difference between MVPDCN in ability to place into NY. G is probably slightly below, and B doesn't seem to hold as much water in NY as it does on the West Coast.

I think a lot of firms wrote Boalt off because their students just wouldn't accept offers in NYC.

Did any of the posters in here actually bid on New York at OCI?...

If I had to guess, I'd say

HYS
Columbia/NYU (half the summer associate classes I know about at NY firms are from Columbia/NYU) and half the people I interviewed with were from CN
Chicago (to be honest, I'm not sure if it has placement power in NY in particular, I didn't meet anyone from Chicago, but it has good biglaw prospects and has a super tiny class)
Penn
Michigan/Virginia/Cornell
Duke/Northwestern
Boalt
Georgetown

Placement power has to do with whether the firm interviews at your school's OCI, so I guess you can look at where firms interview, and GPA cut-offs. Most firms will not interview candidates outside of OCI unless you have super special factors, like military experience or are top 10%. (This is why Boalt is ranked low on the list.) As for Georgetown, it's too big and has rampant grade inflation to really differentiate among candidates. Every firm is different though.

-

dooood wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

dooood wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

Take DF's suggestion and prove me wrong, then. I don't mind learning new things, but forgive me for trusting the wisdom of law students who have been through and are going through the process over you.

I have been "through the process." I'm a 3L at MVP and summered in biglaw in New York. Valuing my or DF's opinion because either of us has been "through the process" would be another fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority. Look, if you have any better info than the firm rep scores, I'm all ears. The only fact you've pointed to is that "Penn is closer to NY, so it's stronger there." The firms coming to OCI at these three schools are the same, and any "networking" you think you'll be doing on the weekends during 1L is negligible.

I appreciate your demeaning efforts to school me on logical fallacies.

And FWIW, I'm not going for NYC, anyway.