Top Law Schools

Hi all! I have a 3.89 UGPA from Yale and a 172 LSAT. I have average softs - solid WE at a legal aid org, good recs, experience abroad, lots of volunteer experience, but nothing mind-blowing. I'm not a minority. What are my chances at the top 10? I'm thinking I should definitely retake the LSAT if I want to shoot for HYS, right? I was PTing 176-180 so I wouldn't feel too risky taking it again if I have to.

Thanks for your help!

Dece shot at Stanford. Did you already apply everywhere or are you talking next cycle?

next cycle! thinking about retaking in june.

Iffy situation. If CCN is out of the question for you, then a retake may be worthwhile, but as it is you will probably get all 3 of CCN, possibly even Stanford. HY might be a bit of a stretch, but not out of the question with a 172.

If you've sent your apps already, see how the cycle plays out and plan for a June retake if you're not happy with the results. If you haven't applied yet, I think you don't have that much to lose with a retake. If the retake goes horribly, a cancel and a 172 doesn't look THAT bad.

lalalalala wrote:next cycle! thinking about retaking in june.

Then retake. If you feel crappy, cancel. Cancel and a 172 probably won't change your fate at CCN. a 172 and a ~175 should put you in at least one of HYS.

I may be alone on this, but I'm not sure there's going to be too much of a difference between a 172 and a 175 in your particular situation, at least as far as SLS and HLS go. Then again, you do claim to be PTing in the tip top range.

Good shot you get into all three. Killer GPA, great UG, solid LSAT, and work experience. You really don't need to retake.

BioEBear2010 wrote:Good shot you get into all three. Killer GPA, great UG, solid LSAT, and work experience. You really don't need to retake.

This. These threads make me feel bad.

Is this a joke? Your chances at most of the top 10 are 100%. But, you really have nothing to lose retaking for yhs. As high as your average is, looks like you had a bad test day, relatively speaking. Even if you miss yhs due to some disinclination towards the retake, you increase your shot at money from Ccn. Had you scored at the top end of your range I would say stick with what you got.

And I didn't mean to be rude by "is this a joke". That is my jealous and oblique way of saying congrats on the impressive academic credentials.

Mottiliatta wrote:Is this a joke? Your chances at most of the top 10 are 100%. But, you really have nothing to lose retaking for yhs. As high as your average is, looks like you had a bad test day, relatively speaking. Even if you miss yhs due to some disinclination towards the retake, you increase your shot at money from Ccn. Had you scored at the top end of your range I would say stick with what you got.

Two questions here. I'm assuming OP would have to get a 176 at a minimum to measurably increase his or her chances at YHS more so than with the 172, stellar UGPA, stellar UG school, etc. Also working off the assumption that it's ridiculously difficult to score a 176. Further, we know OP already has a 172.

My first question is this: is a 172 + 176 (acknowledging the asymptotically small chances at getting anything higher than a 176) really going to help OP more than a solid 172/3.9 from Yale + other softs?

The inverse brings my other question up: because of the astronomically small odds of getting a 176 the second time around, but recognizing the real damage scoring lower (say a 168) could do to OP's application, wouldn't playing it safe be the right answer here?

Just my thoughts. Either way, OP seems to be in great shape. Best of luck!

http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/ ... erData.pdf
Is a chart of what people with certain scores got upon repeat (data is from 2009-2010). For people whose previous score was 172, 15 did better, 12 did worse, and 4 had no change. This is obviously not a very large sample but is kind of interesting to know. You have a great shot already of getting into almost all the T10, but if you're going for some scholarship, a retake could significantly help. I'm too lazy to do this for you, but I would also look into what the schools you're considering think about multiple LSATs. If they only take the higher score, then it can't really hurt that much unless you seriously bomb your retake.

I have the exact same stats as you do non-URM but my GPA is from a much less impressive school and i got a 167 before. So far I have gotten in everywhere, held at harvard and no response yet from yale. if i were you, i would not take it again. you'll be fine

patrickd139 wrote:

Mottiliatta wrote:Is this a joke? Your chances at most of the top 10 are 100%. But, you really have nothing to lose retaking for yhs. As high as your average is, looks like you had a bad test day, relatively speaking. Even if you miss yhs due to some disinclination towards the retake, you increase your shot at money from Ccn. Had you scored at the top end of your range I would say stick with what you got.

Two questions here. I'm assuming OP would have to get a 176 at a minimum to measurably increase his or her chances at YHS more so than with the 172, stellar UGPA, stellar UG school, etc. Also working off the assumption that it's ridiculously difficult to score a 176. Further, we know OP already has a 172.

My first question is this: is a 172 + 176 (acknowledging the asymptotically small chances at getting anything higher than a 176) really going to help OP more than a solid 172/3.9 from Yale + other softs?

The inverse brings my other question up: because of the astronomically small odds of getting a 176 the second time around, but recognizing the real damage scoring lower (say a 168) could do to OP's application, wouldn't playing it safe be the right answer here?

Just my thoughts. Either way, OP seems to be in great shape. Best of luck!

yes, i generally agree with the advice that you are suggesting. had the op asked, "i averaged 170, scored 172, should i retake to shoot for yhs?", then i would have advised against a retake. i am relying on the relatively small likelihood of a 168 based on the pt range. if you gave me a sample of 172s, the op would probably be among the most likely to score higher on a retake. that is why i don't think that there is much to lose.

though i am not in the same boat as the op, i can say that if i scored 4 points below my lower pt bound, then i would be retaking. even granting that it is easier to score below your average when you pt that well.

i can't really say whether or not the 172 + 176 et al. gives a much better shot a yhs than the 172 alone. it's just hard to assess the ug prestige bump. i would imagine that the 176 will make a diff in scholly money at other T10 schools. though, op might get YPed without strong school specific essays.

op, i agree with thestrand. see which schools punish retakers.

If I felt really confident putting up a 175+ I'd probably retake. that's a tough call to make though.

lalalalala wrote:Hi all! I have a 3.89 UGPA from Yale and a 172 LSAT. I have average softs - solid WE at a legal aid org, good recs, experience abroad, lots of volunteer experience, but nothing mind-blowing. I'm not a minority. What are my chances at the top 10? I'm thinking I should definitely retake the LSAT if I want to shoot for HYS, right? I was PTing 176-180 so I wouldn't feel too risky taking it again if I have to.

Thanks for your help!

I literally couldn't stop laughing! what a douchbag...with those numbers and not being a minority WTH do you have to worry about? The Mexican immigrant with a 170 "stealing" your seat at Harvard? Get a life.

ps: lol good job with those numbers though I don't see why HYS shouldn't take you other than, of course, being a complete prick.

how confident can anyone be of that though? i was consistently between a 174 and 179 so i knew that the 167 was way off but given test anxiety expected the 172. i don't know. i don't think it's worth the stress for the possibility of marginally increasing your chance at hys. i think you'll end up in them anyways.

There's no likely harm in retaking, but there are substantial possible benefits. Retake.

Retake. I would say you're an absolute lock everywhere except YHS right now. You have a chance at the top three with your current score, but an improvement of three or four points will get you in everywhere. Given your PT average I seriously doubt your score will decrease on a second attempt. If you leave the test center with a bad feeling just cancel. Other than that, write a solid PS, apply early and enjoy great options.

sonervous88 wrote:how confident can anyone be of that though? i was consistently between a 174 and 179 so i knew that the 167 was way off but given test anxiety expected the 172. i don't know. i don't think it's worth the stress for the possibility of marginally increasing your chance at hys. i think you'll end up in them anyways.

Op is not a douche for asking the yhs question. But the top 10 question was very silly.

thanks for all the replies! this has really helped.

(and, @ gator1 - if overachievers trying to figure out how to get into the top law schools annoys you, then you *probably* shouldn't be hanging out on this website. just a suggestion.)

I apologize, sonervous. My comment was directed @gator. I suck at posting from my phone.

lalalalala wrote:thanks for all the replies! this has really helped.

(and, @ gator1 - if overachievers trying to figure out how to get into the top law schools annoys you, then you *probably* shouldn't be hanging out on this website. just a suggestion.)

Don't patronize me you elitist piece of trash. If you're too sensitive to take criticism then you'll probably have a heart attack when you meet shark lawyers who don't give a rats ass about your whiny ass. Your numbers are better than those of 99% of people on TLS and few attended an Ivy League in the first place so yes, stop acting like a "damsel in distress" grow some balls and ask serious questions for others to actually help you.

haha "elistist piece of trash"? seriously, what are you getting so worked up about? i'm just trying to figure out if a retake is worth it. half the people on this thread say yes and the other half no, so it's clearly not a straightforward situation. if this thread is offensive to you...no one is forcing you to read it. i am sincerely trying to figure out the best thing to do, and everyone's advice has been really helpful. i'm certainly not a "damsel in distress" - just trying to get others' opinions on what to do.

lalalalala wrote:haha "elistist piece of trash"? seriously, what are you getting so worked up about? i'm just trying to figure out if a retake is worth it. half the people on this thread say yes and the other half no, so it's clearly not a straightforward situation. if this thread is offensive to you...no one is forcing you to read it. i am sincerely trying to figure out the best thing to do, and everyone's advice has been really helpful. i'm certainly not a "damsel in distress" - just trying to get others' opinions on what to do.

I have similar numbers. I think the only place that a re-take would help is Harvard. YS is a crap-shoot as it is, and it sounds like you have decent enough softs to have a good shot. If you check out H on LSN you'll see that they take some 172s but you have to have a 3.9X. Still a good shot at H though with your undergrad. A re-take isn't as risky as these people are making it out to be especially if you were PTing so high. Basically if you raise it two points, you're a guarantee at H and no one can predict YS anyways.