Top Law Schools

I have a 3.69 LSDAS GPA (which will probably rise to around 3.73 after this semester) at a non HYP-Ivy and I made a 170 on the June LSAT. I will be coming right out of undergrad but my softs are decent (internships and jobs every summer, volunteer work on campus, etc.). I'm a white male but originally from Alabama, if geographical diversity counts for anything.

I have gotten mixed results on my chances from LSN and LSP so I am now seeking your insight, as my numbers ostensibly make me a marginal candidate at several schools. In other words, there are spots of yellow around my numbers at CNN and MVPB and LSP gives me the dreaded "Consider" for almost every mid-level T14. So, what are my chances at:

Columbia
NYU (with and without ED)
Michigan (with and without ED)
Virginia
Penn
Duke
Berkeley

Lastly, which schools, if any, could I expect money from?

I greatly appreciate it.

Damn. You would have been ballin' if you scored 3~4 points higher on the LSAT.

You are slightly below NYU GPA median (3.75 or 3.78, I forget) and LSAT median (171). Maybe ED can help, but the general consensus is that you have to be above median at one of the two (preferably both) to have a good shot at most T14 schools.

I think you have a good shot at the rest (Columbia, not included).

Personally, I'd retake the 170 and go to Haavahd or CC. If you can get a 170, I am certain you can get a couple of points higher.

Good luck.

From LSN, I think you'll get WLed at CN, WL at MVP unless you ED, and either WLed or admitted at Duke. As for $$ at MVP, I think it depends on which we're talking about. Here are lists from LSN of admitted students this year with a 170 and 3.65-3.8 GPA, excluding URMs:

Michigan: http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... ,6&type=jd

Virginia: http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... ,6&type=jd

Penn: http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... ,6&type=jd

I'd add Cornell and Georgetown in case you get WLed at the T12, but applicants with your numbers seem less likely to get $$ there:

Cornell: http://cornell.lawschoolnumbers.com/app ... ,6&type=jd

Georgetown: http://gulc.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... ,6&type=jd

2ofspades wrote:From LSN, I think you'll get WLed at CN, WL at MVP unless you ED, and either WLed or admitted at Duke. As for $$ at MVP, I think it depends on which we're talking about. Here are lists from LSN of admitted students this year with a 170 and 3.65-3.8 GPA, excluding URMs:

Michigan: http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... ,6&type=jd

Virginia: http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... ,6&type=jd

Penn: http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... ,6&type=jd

I'd add Cornell and Georgetown in case you get WLed at the T12, but applicants with your numbers seem less likely to get $$ there:

Cornell: http://cornell.lawschoolnumbers.com/app ... ,6&type=jd

Georgetown: http://gulc.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... ,6&type=jd

So what would you recommend? Apply early to my favorite of MVP (i.e. Michigan)?

Well...since I'll be attending UM, I'm pretty biased! I don't think you should ED to any school unless you are sure you would want to attend, and you seem strongly interested in both NYU and UM. From LSN, it seems that applicants with your numbers have a small chance of admission without $ at NYU in less competitive years, and little to no chance in more competitive years. On the other hand, your numbers twins generally have a good shot at MVP and of $ at Michigan.

Beyond that, I think it's really up to your gut feeling. And to inform your gut, I think you should visit schools where you are considering EDing. Or, if a visit isn't possible, I would call their admissions offices with any questions you have that may help you decide whether to ED. Both NYU and UM have very nice staff.

2ofspades wrote:Well...since I'll be attending UM, I'm pretty biased! I don't think you should ED to any school unless you are sure you would want to attend, and you seem strongly interested in both NYU and UM. From LSN, it seems that applicants with your numbers have a small chance of admission without $ at NYU in less competitive years, and little to no chance in more competitive years. On the other hand, your numbers twins generally have a good shot at MVP and of $ at Michigan.

Beyond that, I think it's really up to your gut feeling. And to inform your gut, I think you should visit schools where you are considering EDing. Or, if a visit isn't possible, I would call their admissions offices with any questions you have that may help you decide whether to ED. Both NYU and UM have very nice staff.

Thanks for the advice. I actually just got back from visiting Michigan, which is why I'm leaning that way. The law quad is obviously amazing and I really fell in love with Ann Arbor.

That said, I also love New York City and would be happy in the Village. I'm aware of NYU's superior placement/prestige, especially given my current interest in PI/Government.

However, my gut: 1) I'm afraid that it would be a wasted ED since I'm below both medians and 2) I fear being waitlisted at Michigan if I don't ED.

Gratuitous bump.

As long as the rest of your application is decent (no typos, no LORs saying that you're a bad person, etc) I don't think you'll be waitlisted at Michigan if you apply RD. However, I don't think you have any chance at NYU unless you ED, and even with the ED chances are slim. If I were you I'd use that ED at NYU.

kazu wrote:As long as the rest of your application is decent (no typos, no LORs saying that you're a bad person, etc) I don't think you'll be waitlisted at Michigan if you apply RD. However, I don't think you have any chance at NYU unless you ED, and even with the ED chances are slim. If I were you I'd use that ED at NYU.

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. However, applicants seem to get about 30k or 45k from Michigan with my numbers, if they get accepted. Assuming I got in NYU ED, would the (perhaps only slight) prestige advantage be worth sticker over Michigan with $$ and a lower cost of living?

Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't apply anywhere ED.

vicuna wrote: Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. However, applicants seem to get about 30k or 45k from Michigan with my numbers, if they get accepted. Assuming I got in NYU ED, would the (perhaps only slight) prestige advantage be worth sticker over Michigan with $$ and a lower cost of living?

Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't apply anywhere ED.

Haha, well I think that's up to you to decide, it'll differ for everybody. Depends on how much debt you have already, how much weight you put on prestige, what you want to do afterwards (academia? clerk?), etc.

Not applying anywhere ED is an option as well, that's what I'm going to do. However, since you only get a shot at NYU if you ED, it depends on whether you want to sacrifice that shot at NYU for the ability to take possible $ at Michigan.

kazu wrote:

vicuna wrote: Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. However, applicants seem to get about 30k or 45k from Michigan with my numbers, if they get accepted. Assuming I got in NYU ED, would the (perhaps only slight) prestige advantage be worth sticker over Michigan with $$ and a lower cost of living?

Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't apply anywhere ED.

Haha, well I think that's up to you to decide, it'll differ for everybody. Depends on how much debt you have already, how much weight you put on prestige, what you want to do afterwards (academia? clerk?), etc.

Not applying anywhere ED is an option as well, that's what I'm going to do. However, since you only get a shot at NYU if you ED, it depends on whether you want to sacrifice that shot at NYU for the ability to take possible $ at Michigan.

Part of the problem is that I'm unfamiliar with exactly how the two stack up. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I obviously assume that NYU is preferable for NYC big law (which I'm not really interested in) and perhaps PI (which I am interested in). But what about clerkships?

vicuna wrote:
Part of the problem is that I'm unfamiliar with exactly how the two stack up. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I obviously assume that NYU is preferable for NYC big law (which I'm not really interested in) and perhaps PI (which I am interested in). But what about clerkships?

Do a bit of searching - I know there are a bunch of NYU v. Michigan threads out there. I believe Michigan has a definite edge on clerkships, although I'm not sure by how much. Same with academia. Somebody else probably knows a lot more than me - I'm a bit vague on the specifics.

vicuna wrote:

kazu wrote:

vicuna wrote: Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. However, applicants seem to get about 30k or 45k from Michigan with my numbers, if they get accepted. Assuming I got in NYU ED, would the (perhaps only slight) prestige advantage be worth sticker over Michigan with $$ and a lower cost of living?

Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't apply anywhere ED.

Haha, well I think that's up to you to decide, it'll differ for everybody. Depends on how much debt you have already, how much weight you put on prestige, what you want to do afterwards (academia? clerk?), etc.

Not applying anywhere ED is an option as well, that's what I'm going to do. However, since you only get a shot at NYU if you ED, it depends on whether you want to sacrifice that shot at NYU for the ability to take possible $ at Michigan.

Part of the problem is that I'm unfamiliar with exactly how the two stack up. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I obviously assume that NYU is preferable for NYC big law (which I'm not really interested in) and perhaps PI (which I am interested in). But what about clerkships?

Well, for NY biglaw, NYU has a HUGE advantage. Firms will dip a solid 20% deeper into NYU's class than they will Michigans.

Patriot1208 wrote: Well, for NY biglaw, NYU has a HUGE advantage. Firms will dip a solid 20% deeper into NYU's class than they will Michigans.

vicuna wrote:
Part of the problem is that I'm unfamiliar with exactly how the two stack up. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I obviously assume that NYU is preferable for NYC big law (which I'm not really interested in) and perhaps PI (which I am interested in). But what about clerkships?

If you're doing public interest, then I would see what programs have the best LRAP. It wouldn't matter how much scholarship money you received if they have a solid program.

BruceWayne wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote: Well, for NY biglaw, NYU has a HUGE advantage. Firms will dip a solid 20% deeper into NYU's class than they will Michigans.

vicuna wrote:
Part of the problem is that I'm unfamiliar with exactly how the two stack up. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I obviously assume that NYU is preferable for NYC big law (which I'm not really interested in) and perhaps PI (which I am interested in). But what about clerkships?

Oops. Misread it, I thought it said "which I am really interested in". Though for biglaw in general NYU will have the advantage. But Michigan is a good PI school.

My biggest fear is that I apply ED to NYU, don't get in (I mean, my numbers are below both medians) and then I get waitlisted at Michigan RD.

vicuna wrote:My biggest fear is that I apply ED to NYU, don't get in (I mean, my numbers are below both medians) and then I get waitlisted at Michigan RD.

Well, you SHOULD get into Michigan. a good amount of 3.7-3.8 169'ers got in last year. But obviously there is no guarantees so you have to hedge your bets.